561 10 13630 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/849bad08f25eaf67ea34a9e1fd3ae8b6.mp3 041fe7b05310e670d47f2ead744077be https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/8673e186adf0d05f622da3aff97115b2.mp3 6b9839eb83d6f8785d27601b3cd7b274 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/7c230f580ca8894a1bf08a3d9b77905d.pdf 51f2125e6728db6754373a8bef79af6c PDF Text Text I \ HF,RSTORY I P10JECT Mrs. Helen Atkinson interviewed by Geore;ina Garrett and Karen Dubinsky G.G. You were going to tell a story about Mrs. Miller, the b~acksmith in Dorion. A. She wasn't really known as a blacksmith but she always had a lot of horses on her own farm, back in the valley, up in the Ouimet Canyon area. In the early '20's you had teams of horses, particularly heavy horses - this is what they used to haul pulp in the bush camps. Mrs. :Miller and the hired man, Alec Boisie, they both hired on to t he Provincial, I think that was in F.W. the Abitibi was a few years ago, was the Provincial Timber Co. - I don't think it was the Provincial Timber Co., I'm not sure whet it was really called. Anyway, they went back into camp and of course she took one teai~ and Alec took another team and the shacks they lived in in those days are a far cry from the type of things they live in today, in bush camps. It came time to go to bed and of course all the other men in that particular sleep schack were all a little wary about ~etting undressed because a woman was in the camp but she couldn't load her - I guess it would be sleighs because they did most of the hauling in the winter time on sleighs. Q. A. Did she hire herself to haul lumber? This wasn ' t lumber, this was pulp - ther's a difference. She had to load it and it was 4 foot sticks and you would load it from the piles the cutters had cut and they were all cut with ordinary saws in those days, not power saws. She turned around to the men and she said, "Look fellows, you might as well go to sleep .... " (she was already in bed) " .... all I came for was to haul pulp like the rest of you." And she turned over and went to sleep. I al- ways thought that was so 2.propos - women's lib. away back 58 years ago. She was g_uite the old girl, I just loved Mrs. Miller, she was really a darling person. Q. Where was her husband at this point? A. I don ' t know, I asked about this the other day because I thought of this story. I've got two or three of these, of these old stories, with these old time c:;als �with women's lib ideas. A lot of people nowad.ays figure that they went along with everything their husbands said. They did to a point but sometimes they could dig their toes in and make things pretty miserable, in a very subtle manner that a lot of girls nowadays don't do, can ' t do because once they had the training how to do it. But her husband, I don ' t !mow whether he died or she left him, I really don't know. Bill Holder might be able to tell you that. She stayed one winter with old Bill Holder down there, and she was an old lady when she died - she was way into her 90 ' s. She was the most beautiful cook and it used to be cute to go and visit her and old Alec Boisie, he had been the hired man, but by this time you're both getting old and he had his not his part of the house exactly, but he had a sort of sittinG room bedroom and it ·was quite large because it was a fairly large house - and she had her end of the house. I remember the last time I was there. They had no power back there yet, there wasn't sufficient population for the expense and they each had their radio and we were there one Saturday afternoon. We had gone out - my husband had to get something from Mrs. Miller - however ::he turned on the radio, this wasn ' t that many years ago, I don ' t think T.V. 'shad come up yet, we were johnny-come-lately's as far as T.V. reception was concerned, with Thunder Bay. So we had to listen to the radio and Alec, he comes to the door and he says, "If you think that is a good one, come and hear mine." Well, I wasn't going to say that this was better. It wasn ' t exactly a feud but it Has a sort of one-upmanship all the time. It was really charming. I don't think a lot of people were aware of it but it used to really tittilate me because my grandfather and grandmother were very much the same - always Q. one up on each other, but that pulp story I thought was beautiful. How did she get a reputation as a blacksmith? A. She did do her own blacksmithinB so far as I know. Long after I came out to Dorion she riould come out to the store, to Bratten ' s store, it used to be up on the side road, ana_ then they built the big new place and they sold it 3 or 4 years ago. She came out with a buggy - she was still coming out with one of them. Q. How did she survive financially? A. She farmed back there and that uas exactly why you go back in the bush with the horses in the Hinter time, because He used to have this cash, I don't know what they goi, but it shouldn't be that hard to find out. �Q. A. She'd cut her own wood? No, she wouldn't be cutting the pulpwood, she was just hauling from somewhere out to a landing which would usually be on a lake so they could raft it down in spring. Q. A. You must be from the east. No. If you've never seen them form a raft, they haven't been doing that for a A. long time. I've seen it in Lake Nipigon. Yes, you see the big rafts there. Q. too. Does she have descendants that are still living? Q. A. 'l. A. Not that I know of. She never had children then? I couldn't even tell you that. Used to raft down here on the Black Sturgeon Never heard it mentioned but I'm not saying .... when I first met her she was a woman in her 60's and you don ' t ..... When I first saw the house, and it was a log place that they had built, it was really nice, I always wished we had had it. It was a really beautiful place with a great Q. A. big lot - they are the "in" thing now. This is your husband's mother. Yes. But mousy places because mice could get in. Oh, boy, there were mice. They had come from England in 1910, Joe wasn't born until they got out here. They lived in F.W. for perhaps a year or two and then they got the place fixed, the farm. They bought the property down her, or homesteaded it. That's somethine; I'm not sure about, there is a difference. I think it was bought. They were in it together - Grandpa Atkinson and Grand.ma Atkinson who has been dead for years and years and her brother, Foster, was his last name. Anyway, when they got off the train, when they came from F. W. and they had everything loaded into one box car - they landed out her out on Station, so they had to walk up the track a mile from the station just beside the ____ to the ______ which is not too far from the track. It is right across the highway from where the track is and where the highway is now. The sister was about 4 when they got to this farm and the house was just rounded logs with the cracks because they don't fit smooth like timbers do. There were even the chips lying around - this is a family story told over the years although Joe was only a baby - about 3 months old - he wouldn 't remember but he has heard it often enough. It was just a rough building and this �is what you're supposed to live in with a 3 or 4 month baby and a 4 year old daughter. Bessie, the 4 year old - Elisabeth - she looked around the place and said to her mother, "Do we have to live in this woodshed?" I found out anyway by asking members of the family - Bessie in particular -.how you could get a place like that liveable. You can imagine walking int.o a rough log place, what would you do with it? She said they used mud and sawdust and anything you could get to chink it for the winter because it was about June when they came in. They got it all chinked up and then they used gunny sacks in which the animal feed came in and I think perhaps one cow·was all they had, and you would tack that to make a smooth finish, as smooth as you could 5et it and then you would, later on if you could afford a few rolls of wallpaper, then you made home-made flour paste and glued it on. It took several years to get tse place into something decent, when I first saw it in 1938, it was Q. A. really'a charming place but when you think of how it at first was. tlhat did they do for furniture? Theirs was with them, in fact there is a walnut rocking chair - it is really beautiful, I think it's called a Queen Anne style - I ' m not saying 1t's a real Queen Anne, I don't even Imow where the thing came from. I just gave Q. A. it to my daughter-in-law and my son because we used to use it in our summer cottage. There is quite a few things like that - the clock they brought with them was a wedding present from England. There was also china. Did they want to farm? Is that why they came here? In those days in England, if you owned 160 acres of property, they were always Q. relating it to what it was like in England. Where would you ever buy that property yourself? Anyone in a working class atmosphere, themselves would never be able to buy it in England - they can't yet I don ' t think. You 're a large gandowner if you own 100 acrs. A. Right - Grandpa owned more than that - he owned 320 acres, 160 anyway, that would be safe to say, and a grandson has it now. Q. We found that so many people when they came to the middle of the bush in Northern Ontario, would always bring something likecchina etc, to represent the good life. A. That's right because, they were perhaps a little different then all the settlers. Joe has pictures of when they were just kids ·- all of the pictures of Joe and the younger brother, Ben, who owns a garage over here and is living in a fantastic house, shows them with their white shirts on on Sunday with the ties on and always the white linen tablecloths on the table. So you brought your culture with you, even though your environment was a little crude like it would be in the bush at that time, but you did have a certain amount~ �of culture, especially the people from Britain. Q. Do you think they were disappointed? A. I don't think so, Joe's mother died 4..5 years ago and Grandpa Atkinson went back to England - the first time he went back - Joe and I 1xere already married and you used to hear these stor~es about England and you used to think you ' d never want to see the place because everything was super. I asked him how he found things and asked him if everything was better than Canada because this was how we always used to rib him. He said "Oh, Blast. They are so blind over there, some of the places don't even have electricity !" That shut him up, I never heard anymore about England. Q. ~Je talked to a woman - Catherine Stephenson. A. Oh, yes, she was a war bride. Q. No, she wasn't because she came over here as a young girls anddstayed with her aunt and lLY1cle. She has been here since 1924 and. she would say "home" meaning England. A. They do talk like that because my people are Scottish from Manitoba and it ,;•ms "home" and when you get to see those old Scottish people together. I remember not too long before Dad and r1other died there were a few Scottish people and they uould all go back to the brog11e like they had only come over a year ago and they'd been out here since ... Dad since he was 17 years old and that Has 60 years and they could go back into that easily. In fact my brother and I used to be able to do it too because you hear it for so long. ~. Do you knm-.r if there was any i:nvolvement here on the part of the Women's Institute in the suffrage movement? A. That I have never heard of. Ontario were johnny-come-lately ' s women-wise, as far as separtism was concerned. Manitoba was the loader in that. Q. It seems most of the rural communities were ......... . A. Have you any idea how many women it doesn't mean a damn thine: to as far as the vote is concerned now? You know what one woman told me at the last election? She said, "I'm not too sure who I'm going to vot for but ....... " I can rem- ember one girl telling me, "There was a big dance and I wanted to go and I didn't have a decent dress" so she dug out some flour sacks, nq sugar bags, and "I dyed them and I macle myself a dress. I cut buttons off old shirt·s that were in the ras bag until I had enough" and she had it buttoned all down the front 1--rith a belt to match. new to wear. I was 16 and you had to have something �told me how her mother would make dresses out of flour sacks - Q. they bleached them so that all the writing on them caJne off and then made A. dresses. And pants, underpants. I remember when I first came to Dorion - you were just getting out of the Depression in ' 39, I came that fall and the war started in September. I remember a friend that lived a mile from us, making kids' underwear - slips - but she put lace on them, little panties with lace, so Q. A. Q. A. there was this little bit of culture. It's funny, now they sell flour sack tops in stores and leave the writing on. You're kidding. Oh, yes - Robin Hood. I doubt if it is real flour sacks .... . ... That was 1904 .... but I do rememner that because 74 years ago I was even surprised when I read this, that they actually elected a woman a treasurer, when there were all the men, . . . .Nrs. S. Holder .... Q. A. I thought the pr~iries had long, severe winters. They do, but not as lonr as ours. You go out there in April and the grain is up all around, where you are not plantine; anything here at all. We just plaated our tomatoes this morning, and I think that has a lot to do with it. Also you were greatly dependant on your gardens for a lot of your vegetables, because those old girls used to can stuff and you had root cellars and that. If you had early frosts and frosts during the summer which are very prevalent in this part of the country, in Eastern Ontario. So if your earden is damagQ. ed to any extent ..... I remember reading about a pioneer and the first year everything was wiped out. A. It was all wiped out with frost. problem. Getting meals ready must have been a real Take your potatoe crop, suppose you had an extremel~· ~,;ret fall and you couldn ' t bet them picked up or harvested and you lost half of them. You ;-rere dependant upon your own potatoe crop because if yours was damaged with some of those diseases, 9 times ou:t; of 10 your neighbors would have the same problem. If you were lucky enough and you always had to save potatoes from last year's pla11ting for next year's seed in this part of the oountry because shipping Has pretty grim in those days too. one? Q. A. Doctors - how would you eet to A lot of children died uith diseases. Did you know any mid-wives in this area? Yes, Mrs. Watty was a midwife, and Joe's sister in the ' JO ' s. She was a e:-raduate nurse in St. Joseph's and she used to work in with the Department �of Agriculture - you've heard of their extension services - and she would go around giving home nursin:; courses which is the "in" thing now. Keep the penple·home and go and take care of them there because the hospitals are running on shortened money and the more severe cases go to the hospital. In those days, suppose you had a very ill child and you were living way back in the ______ area where we lived for JO years and the roads Here blocked in the winter, how would you get out? You had to depend on yourself and whatever medicines you had or old fashioned remedies. That pulled a lot of them through but a great many died too. Q. Do you think the women down here learned anythine; from the native women who A. had a lot of skills in living in this kind of "nvironment? Dorion? Perhaps no, because it wasn't a real bic_; Indian area, not for a long • time. In Hurkett there were a lot of Indian people. They interreacted in - the smoking of fish, now a lot of people did smoke fish, especially the suckers that ran heavily in spring and you could get loads of them. Q. for the winter. People ate suckers? That was fish In Th1mder 13ay they don ' t eat suckers - they are wormy fish. A. They are notaall wormy. cake out of them. I canned them too. You can make a beautiful fish And they learned a great many things about canning. The men were pretty fair hunters and even during the Depression in the offseason, there were loads of times that a moos or deer - that ' s where your meat came from. Q. Do. you think women developed the skills as they lived or did they come here with some kind of Imowledge of medicine etc? A, I think both of your suggestions are correct in some instances. Also a 0 reat many of the women did get their information from older women - learn things from neighbors like cooking - recipes go from first to last. In this area not too many ethnic groups came in from Europe until after the First World -rar so that a lot of those women wouldn't have too many of those skills unless they were rural women but rural women have always had a lot of these types because it is learnt from mother to daughter etc. I had an extremely good neighbor - Mrs. Reno - they were very early settlers in 1910 and she had slews of relatives left, sons and daughters and grandchildren. But mentioning the medical skills, in those days Mrs. Watty delivered several of Mrs. Reno's 1 �family. My oldest son was very sick with diarrehea and I had him into see a specialist in town and he gave this prescription but nothing worked so Mrs. Reno came over one day - she said she could sive mef something for, that. He was about 18 months and was he sick, he lost a lot of weight. She sent one of the daughters over with raspberry bushes - just the cane - and told me to cut them up and boil them and simmer for about 10 minutes. Strain it carefully through several layers of material so none of the thorns came through and bive it to him in a bottle or anyway he ' s going to drink it. In two days he was all cleared up. :She said her mother had told her that trick. I remember telling that to a child specialist and he said he wouldn't doubt it and that some of those old girls had marvellous treatments they think of. Q. Have you ever heard of lemon juice being used widely as a birth control method? A. You were talking to Bill, I ' ve got sheets of stuff that he sent me long ago. How about mountain ash berries, have you ever tried them? Q. I hear they're poisonous. A. No, they aren't. You've heard of Pete ____ from the Ministry of Natural Resources, well his wife asked me if I had mad it and I said I had twice. Jello from mountain ash because I read it was good. I don ' t doubt that it ' s loaded with Vitamin C but, it ' s just like wild plums, can ' t get enough sugar in to cut the sharpness out of it. Q. A. What about baking soda? Never. Do you know if that was a good ...... . Q. Fill capsules up with baking soda and lemon juice. A. That sounds like a placebo. Q. Do you think there is a lot of co-operation between women in Dorion and the Hurkett area? A. Q. There is some interaction but not really. Hhy didn't they mix? A. I don't know, I've often wondered. I can remember seeing that done as a placebo. They were always friendly and if anyone got burned out, now I ' m thinking of a long time ago, you'll find there are always more people in Dorion that settled as families than what there were down there. Old families as compared to what there is in Hurkett. Because a lot of people down there were ori,:inally, their families were from Dorion. There was an institute but with a little interractiion. Q. I don't mean between women of Hurkett and Dorion, I mean the women in Dorion itself. �' . A. Yes, there still 1s, to a great extent but a gr;eat extent of the people 1n Dorion have gone to school together which gives you a sort of - a great many of' the families are related through marriage. In fact i t took me three y8&'C'S to get it aJ.l strai~ened out when I first came. You didn't. say anything about anybody because i t could be a sister-in==law, a cousin or an aunt or an uncle etc., so you said nothing because after you'd get caught they'd say, "Oh• yes, that's my brother's wife or she's my aunt on my father's side." Get pretty leery about sqing anything. Q., What about in the older ~s? A. Just the sams.. there was just as much. whan they were Church that doesn •t stand anymore, the Anglican Church and the Baptist Ohurch had something also and then the 'l'he Anglicans perhaps would h:.e a _ _ _ _ an Fricuey building the Baptist had an annual. picnic Catholic Church too. ~ t and you could Q. depend on the same people being on that one as would be on the Catholic one because they intemixed. a great deal, no never ulnd as far as religion was concemed. Do you think ·the relationships bet-ween women overcame etlmic and religious boundaries? You've heard of the Intemational Da.y that the Institu·t.es have? Well, we had one ~t the haJ.l quite a f'ew years ago and i t made no nwer :nind he:re. I was really surprised when I first came to Dorion. I had been brought up that w~ m;rsel.£ because when I went to school we had the League of Nations. One thing I rsaember the first year I started public sohool, I was going on 9 and I didJ1't even know what the poor tea.chllr was talking about. She toldus we shollldn ~t eat garlic before we came to s~hool. Especially in the wint~ time when the roams would be just sick, these were first generation Canad1ana like JI\YSelf' and theyt'J. have strings around their 11eck. On old woman lived in Dorion and my sister-in-law, for the oldest boy, that was just what she tol'- rJ.m to use - you couldn'•t. get, near the poor little guy. Garlic was a cure all for everything even then, they used to put turpentine on brown paper and .put i t on your chest £or a <..~ or on the soles ot your feet. What your . feet had to do with your chest I don~t Imow. Was the Wamen•s Institute the only organizational format? Yes and 1.t did a tremendous amount o£ good. V e1.vy tiue of a lot of places. A. Almost ever.y-where. Q. A. Q. A. �Why do. you think that was? I Q, A. Q. A. You're too young to realize there were not too many women's organizations. Actually it is the largest one in the world ~th the grea.tes number of members, at last count.....it was about 7 million. The ~icanadian Women's Club was an old club but it was, ~trlct~y urban und th~ sam.e with the Canadian W(>Dlen•s Press Club but it •s called Median Club now. It is also old but- strictly urban. There was .not~ in th~ rural areas - II183'be the famer•s Association and the _women were invited especially a £aw times in Ea.stern Ontario. You m..,an the United _F armers Part,y tha.t won the election? l'lo. Mrs. Ho?d.less - Izvine Lee is the man I was thinking of. He was responsible for get.ting it started. He invited. her to go a..1:oim.d with him and do the first speaking at this fa.1.111ar's meeting and ·t;he women had been invited. I oan•·t remember what it was C"~cl. I've aJ.wqs heard va.n~e things about it over t.ha yeaxs and nEJV'er could pin anyb~ dmmo There were the Junior Famers and there was alweya the Woodlands ~ch groups. I don•t think there was a Catholic Womens• Leac,~e but I think there is now in Hurkett, Dorion and Pearl but that is very contampera.ry_. Where do ~.QU think that 1 t wa..'3 the Women •s Institute that too!t off? Why is it so extensive? When i·t first stuted. in Ca..?lada. - and it is ver:, big 1n a ,l ot of oth~ countries where a lot of what we have leaJ;ned 1n t,he :N.rst 25 to 30 years of it ,s being o:r6dnized. in Canada - food production and preparations and preserving food etc. _,. -they are just wor~ on that in a lot or areas now. In the developing countries - and some develop but there is a very great dif;l'erence between - beca.1.tse most of those countries don tt µave a midc!le cl~s such a~ t-1e .do,. They have the very rich or the very poor - there is .1 very thin line of' in-between where t'1.e masses of Canada and t~e U.s, . and even J3%'1ta1n are ma.de .up of the middle class. Fduca.tion had never ~een too big in some of th, .. countries. Ou.r's was the one that ssid women should be educated and they did the best to educating tlte women - maybe mor~ in the line of housekeeping skills, cleanliness and things people take for granted. no~. Pasteurizing milk,. public hea1th service, educattn~ women - if you read any of those stories about the first woman doctor .. sh~ ~ ter.r:1ble times getting t:t,eough tmiverei.;.y because they didn •t feel she wo~d have the a.bllity, the brains, etc.. You were al.wB.¥S class.e a a.s a second-cl3Ss citizen 1t· not fourth-class �,. after the animals if they came off a farm. I think that's what it was and Q. the women were aw:.i., of j t • We looked at the Le~~~ b<;'ok from ~ - Hymer's area 1·Jomen 's Institute and it is really good. It gave outlines of some of the topics discussed at meet- A. ings. Some of them are very interesting. Laws pertaining to Ontario women - and that is a contemparary issue - was in Q. 1913 discussed. A. It's like everything else you get - you oute;row things. But there have been a ,ireat many things that have been brought into law as far as women and children are concerned. One of the big deals here is the family laws. four years ago a_nd still is, Some of the women had been cut off 1-:ithout a dime. The husband diecl and left half of it to the church or J/4 of the women worked Q. like dogs. Mrs. Hymers, my neighbor, considered herself to be a very independanrfi, strong woman - do you think their husbands treated them as equals because they worked so hard on the farm and work in the bush etc., or do you think that even though they had these skills they weren't ... A. It depends entirely on the man-woman relationship. My mother was a very independant woman, she and dad got along very well. I think it depends on the people themselves. Fith all the talk etc., it takes two if you're going to be married - it takes a certain relationship but it depends on you as much as your husband. Q. A. What was the attitude of the men here, to the Women's Instutute? I'm a fairly new member compared to others because it had been operating for years before I ever heard of it, although my grandmother belonged in Manitoba. I think they kind of made fun because you actually do get that attitude even yet with a lot of women's groups. so. Chatter and stitch type of thing but not I think women do a lot of talking but men do too, all you have to do is go to conferences these days - they talk and talk. Maybe not so much modern vromen - the use of the husband in your family came first even though you worked outside, and loads of them did, held down a full-time job. interested in your family first and then the job. You were First you have to be an individual yourself and an independa.nt type of person. You can't do a good job on those two, I don't care Hho you are. If you can't carry on a good relationship Hith yourself. If you can't be happy with yourself you won't be LI �happy with anybody. I think a lot of pioneer women learned how to live with themselves first ru1d then the rest comes easy. I ' m thinking of all the women I knew who had been active all their lives, have done.all those things, have been married and are still married to the same person. I ' m not counting the friends who have been divorced two or three times because they could be married 49 times and they ' d go and do the same thing everytime. First you learn about yourselves, I think that is something a lot of younger women aren ' t aware of. This finding yourself that you're always talking about is not a thin~ to talk about, it ' s a thing to do because no one can do it but you and it comes from inside not from all the blah blah. I don ' t care who you are . . . . . . . Invariably you take lunch with them, so they served coffee and sandwiches. Q. But women never did the firefighting themselves. A. No, but some of the younger women now, because women have been incorporating Hith some of the fire departments, especially the volunteer groups because of the men beini:;; away all day. I think i:aka beka - they had the first women who actually drove the truck, they are trying to do that now here. But there is al Hays enough men around here that work right in within the community . . . . . . . we didn ' t 3et any grants or anything - they did the whole thing themselves. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Helen Atkinson Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs. Helen Atkinson in Dorion, Ontario on June 20, 1978. The interview was performed by Georgina Garrett and Karen Dubinsky as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. During the interview, Mrs. Atkinson recalls the social, material, and working conditions of Northern Ontario in the early 20th century, including housing, farming, furniture, pulp hauling, clothing, medicine, community and personal relationships, and the activity of women. Halfway through the second audio file, Mrs. Atkinson speaks about the Women's Institute and other women's organizations of the early 20th century. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. Please note that there is brief mention of Indigenous peoples in the area of Dorion, Ontario that make use of language no longer considered appropriate. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-06-20 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Dorion Canada - Ontario - Fort William Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/91434b931ba2389c30926c1409a42a5d.mp3 cfddfc33726ed0a849f96837eb6cae16 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/8478f1f25a8406e24446ac2f9c18fd09.mp3 a8244c78a9f5d7c2f9a30dc686df5f4c https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/37ca34e4b1b4a4a69b6b53165f6286de.mp3 807987e817ac16f7a7512d1a0d78a793 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/2d775f760650c71f26ab1c33f2f7c5d6.pdf 4f9e48cef8f2180259a6bcbfd49827ba PDF Text Text I ) HERSTORY PROJECT Mrs. Maki intervied by Georgina Garrett Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. In what year were you born Mrs. Maki? I was born in 1911. How long did you live in South Gilles? I lived in S. Gilles for 59 years. Why did your family go to S. Gilles - how did they get there? My mother and dad came from Finland but my dad came about two years before. He worked in the States for two years then he came to Port Arthur and he sent for my mother. My mother came with three children, two boys and a girl. and the little girl died about two weeks after with the whooping cough. So, my father looked for a farm for the best territory for the family. They settled in South Gilles which was a farm with a 160 acres and a little shack.,,,., Then, he started clearing land, there was about two acres clear and they got a call on credit from somewhere so that is where they started. My father sometimes worked out ten hours a day and he'd get / up early in the summertimes, about four or five o'clock and he'd clear land and go for work about seven. He'd come home in the evening and he'd again clear land until it was dark. How many acres did he finally manage to clear? Well, they:·had four farms and they managed to clear about 150 acres total. Then my brothers grew up and the family grew too - there was eight of us children living because two had died - and when the boys grew up they had to help out with the farm work, the cows had to be milked and the herd of cattle grew, they had about ten or twelve milking cows, pigs and mixed farming. Would you say that the farming was pretty prosperous out there? No, not in the first years. My father had a team of oxen and he used to go to work for the other farmers, and he got about a dollar a day , enough to buy groceries. It was pretty hard at first. My mother worked on the farm when my dad worked out and she worked in the hay fields and she raised the family, made her own soap - everything from scratch. Picked wild berries, grew a garden and knitted all the stockings and sweaters for the children, she'd sew when the children were put to bed, she'd sew to twelve or one o'clock in the morning. She just bought the material because it was cheaper ------- \ �to buy, the clothes were more expensive, so she did all the work herself. I really can't see how she did it all, she did the work of three women. I think maybe it would take half a dozen nowadays. So the boys grew up and some of us got married, two of my brothers stayed on the farm - they were bachelors. So finally they had two barns and a big house and all the working equipment - haybailers if they went to bail hay for the farmers in the fall for about three months. This is the way my parents and we lived until we got married. Q. Do you think it was a very satisfying life for your mother or do you think it was filled with drudgery? A. A lot of drudgery and no time for play. Of course women were satisfied. in a way because most women rad to do the same thing. Maybe some were better off - maybe they didn't have to manage the barn, maybe their husbands did it. Q. When my dad worked out, the boys did most of the farming. Who looked after the children in the early years when your mother had to do the farmwork? A. The old:er children. When we got the farm my older brother was about eight I at the time and he was left with the younger children and when I was six or seven, I was left at home all day to look after the kids. \ I changed their diapers, I washed dishes - I had to stand on a little stool, and there was a mountain of dishes and I still hate washing dishes. On the farm, if you had a big family you couldn't afford to send the children to school , I know I wanted to go in the worst way. ~-~f. high I went five and a half years to public school and I passed and they told me I was good in school so I tried everything but my dad couldn •t afford it. ,l And so very few I children went to high school even though there was a lot of smart kids I - but there was no money to be had. Q. Was your family close to other Finnish settlers? A. No, this was mostly an English community, they were the only Finns there. Dad had to learn some English when he worked out and he got along all right with the English but well, it wasn't easy. About twelve or thirteen years before the other settlers there came two or three families from Finland, to locate in South Gilles. Mother would visit people along with father Nolalu - all the way they'd drive with the horses or oxen. at And then we had a nice little lady _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , she was. ·an assistant coach - well she could understand, my mother wouldn't know a word here or there, and she'd put it all together. She used to visit our place often and I remember her �when I was little, sometimes some of the things she told us ...... And they would walk a long way - some of them used to be ten mile walks. Then of course there was the Women's Institute but my mother didn't belong because she wasn't fluent enough in English. The Women's Institute· was a wonder- ---- ful thing though because they would go once a month and they'd all gather there. They would go with the horses and the men would go too - it was in the afternoon. The men would have a meeting by themselves and talk about farming and the women would have their meeting and talk about different ways • of doing things - making soap, preserving eggs. and preserving other things. They learnt a lot of things in the Women's Institute. I think it was sort I of a university for a lot of women. They were a very good organization. Q. A. Did you ever join? Yes, I'm a life member of the Women's Institute for almost forty years. I joined the institute ten years after I got married , and I found it very rewarding. I was at the time very shy, couldn't get up to speak or say anything but finally it was hard for me to say "I second the motion". Eventually I got up and gradually I was named for many ~ffices in the _, institute. I was in the Council for three years_; on the School Board, etc. Q. All this in South Gilles? Yes. That sounds like political involvement - how did you develop that way - to A. Q. A. Q. A. want to participate in the community? I'm an avid read.er, I read a lot and I think that then, the Women's Institute and everything helped. I had learned much more after I left public school than I ever learned in public .school. Bit by bit, reading and all that I became quite a politician. I know all the Conservatives and Liberals and CCF and Social Credit. I make it my business to know their pu.atf:orms and what they want to do and what their ideas are. Of course you can't really know politicians ,you have to take it with a grain of salt. When you were young did yoµ and your husband talk about politics? We did, right from the start. My husband did not go to school very long in Finland because where he lived they didn't have public schools until he was fourteen. He went to school for about one year but he's very good in arithmetic and he reads and writes and knowledgable in world af'fairs. He's like me he reads a lot of books and magazines - too many in fact. If I had had more education I would have been a politician. But, I haven't II �Q. A. got the gift of gab, if I'd have got more education perhaps I would have got the ability to phrase the words differently. Can you describe your life when you were a young woman in Gilles? What was it like for you? What kind of expectations did you have? He didn't have too many expectations because the times weren't very good and the Depression years struck us, mostly because we didn't have a chance to go to school - the majority of women, only two that I know of, went to high school, and they only went about two years. One started teaching and the other was a clerk. What we thought about was - you get marri-oo,____....,,. and you settle on a farm. This was our big objective, we couldn't think of anything else. Married women didn't go to work and in the Depression years if you were married and if you were a teacher, you couldn't get a job. The single people were hired, you could not get a job if you were married. It was thought that you would settle on a farm and somehow get enough to get clothes for yourself. Had wood stoves and box stoves and you would use them in the winter time for heat. You got goods like milk and butter from your cows, the eggs and meat from chickens and we'd grow a garden and grow potatoes, you could pick wild berries. . There was good food, no doubt about that. We had no meat freezers then but we put the carrots in the sand;with the other vegetables and things we would use the root cellar. The cellar was dug into a little hill and you'd line it with seed and - - - - - and put double doors on it and aJ.l the vegetables would be kept there. I know sometimes in July we had carrots that were just like they'd been taken out of the garden, they'd keep so well. And the potatoes and turnips and we make pickles of all kinds. There was no -- Q. A. problem in getting food on the farm, but it was trying to get anythin_g____; else that was bad, because money was so hard to come by. Where did you learn your skills to preserve food and meat? My mother mostly and from other women talking about how they did it and I'd get tips from others. I remember my mother - moose meat was always available, there was so many moose and deer running around the fields that I know a lot of: people shot them out of season because there were too many. My mother would clean, wash and drain the meat and she'd pack the meat in jars, about 1½ quarter or 2 quarter jars and she would add about a tbsp. of salt and put alspice on top, That would boil for about six or seven hours in a big wash boiler and you'd put little sticks on the bottom so �5 that the jars wouldn't hit the bottom and then you'd boil them outside and you kept them boiling for about six to nine hours. That meat was so delicious, I can't describe it to you, it had a flavour all it's own. It was better than any other canned meat I've tasted. Some people salted it down Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. but it had to soak for quite a while ' and then it was boiled or roasted with pork .• if you had pork you would put it on top because moose meat is very fat and deer meat is very fat. And my mother always made real soap from the fat and the bones were put in as well ..... this was good for washing clothes. Do you think there was a lot of co-operation between the women? Yes there was, but there had to be. My mother was having problems with the language and I would know the language from going to public school, so I would interpret for her. And then they had quilting bees and things like that. Do you think there was any ostracization of certain families if they were very poor? Yes, in a way there was. I know one family that was very poor and they had quite a few children and the other children would comment about their poor clothes .... And there was no social services, they couldn't get any help, but the children turned out very well, much better than anyone ever would have expected. Can you talk about some of the social activities that went on in South Gilles? Yes, box and pte socials and the picnics and the school concert - they were something because we had very little other recreation. Pie socials well it was a pie social, everybody would bring a pie and they would be auctioned off and you have the name and you'd have them all decorated, the handle and the pie plate and then the men would bid on these. Then they'd have another for younger people, from about 13,14 to 16 year olds and then the boys would bid on these. I remember one, we were at ---School which was about five miles from Gilles School, we went mostly to Gilles School but sometimes we went out there. And then there was the teacher, she had told her boyfriend what the pie was like so all the other young men, well, they had eyes and ears. Sure enough, he started bidding because he lmew it was the teacher's. Eventually he had to pay 13 dollars, for that pay, he had to work about a whole week. Where did the money go? It went to the school and hall. It was sort of a community affair. In the winter time sometime we had a social were the women provided a lunch, there �was no dance, and we had all kinds of games. Then there were the school picnics, where a big truck would take the school children and go to the _ _ and spend the day. There were platforms put on the bottomeof the truck and they weren't very well fastened so whenever we took a tum, the whole truck would sway. And then the school concerts, we used to prepare for that two months ahead. I remember going once to S. Gilles for the con- cert and it lasted to midnight - the different costumes and the work of the mothers and teachers, was tremendous. The concert usually ended after about an hour and a half to two hours but this lasted to midnight. It was a Christmas concert and it was performed five or six days before Christmas, but now it has been discontinued which is a shame because this was a type of training for the children - they took children from the audience who would do their piece if they had courage - it was a living process. they said the children spent too many hours of school time on it. But I rem- ember when I went to school, not one hour was spent of school time on it, was noon hour and recesses that we did all the work and practise for the concert. I think they should have been kept on in the country because the children don't have the same opportunity to perform before an audience ~, Q. A. _J_/}~- Who helped you when you had your children? There were midwiYes. J The majority of the women had their babies at home, and I know my mother had ten children and she was never in the hospital once, and everything turned out fine. The first time she went to the hospital was when she was seventy years old. died in our community at birth. I don't think there was a child that I think the women were stronger in those days, they worked until they were ready to have the baby, which helped I think because when you 're on the go you 're strong. I can remember one woman saying that this man 1-iad a horse and it was in foal, and he had a hired man so he says to him that the mare is in foal but be very careful of her, when you turn corners, turn them gently. But his wife was pregnant and she worked day and night and he never told her to take it easy. The young colt was worth money but the baby was just one too many. Q. What about heal th care? Did women give each other hints on that? A. We had old time cures for different things and if it didn't help well the person died ..... Cures like this didn't always work .... Q. Is there any interesting story or anecdote about your life or another woman's life you would care to relate? A. Q. I can't think of anything. In what way? Just a story or concerning what? Something that shows your pioneer spirit, or maybe just a woman who stands �out in your mind; what she did for the community etc. A. Well, in the community I was in everything. as an individual. Politically I had never held although I had been interested in it, but I had not had enough an office education. Of course I went to all the political meetings etc. and I helped when they had an election as a scrutineer. They gave me the papers and told me how to do it and I worked on that. Q. What about in S. Gilles, what kind of work did you do there? A. I worked as a farmer's wife but then I was on the Council for years, I was still on the Council before I left. Q. Were there a lot of women on the Council? A. Not very many and I was elected yea:r: after yea:r, and then I was on the School Board for ten yea:rs, but I had to retire from the boa.rd. Q. What gave you this idea to run for office? A. Some people asked me. position myself. I think I would have been to timid to go for the I was a timid woman, I didn't put myself forward at all, I always had a low estimation of myself. Q. Do you think that is typical of farmwomen, I mean they were a pretty independant lot, why did they feel timid? A. Because I think most of them had very little education, I think most of them didn't even have grade school. The times were so, that if they got grade school educations they were lucky, most people thought that it wasn't worth educating a girl. F,ducate the boys if you can, but a girl - I remember my father saying to me - "Well you can change diapers withou;t· an education' ' . The way he put it, I would be a wife and I'd have children and I'd have a home. Q. This was the attitude of most of the community. I've heard that most rural women had more education than their husbands because the boys had to be taken out of school to do farmwork. A. This is true, as far· as the husbands go. education than their husbands. I think most of the women had more The new school was built and the old school was moved to the other side, and a new road was built. things. And yo, organized A new Ladies Aid of the United Church ..... the small church faded out of the picture after, For yea:rs, the co.:..ops existed, and then I was a member of the board of directors because there were very many co-ops then. There were many meetings I had to go to and I was the first secretary of the Hall Board, and I don 't know how I ever got the time. Q. Can you talk about your farmwork, what kind of working day you had on the farm? �q A. Well, it was niixed farming. We had chickens and cows and of course in the Depression years we worked on the farm and I did a little bit of sewing. We cleared. the land but we moved - we stayed on that farm for about three yea.rs. We moved to another farm and we built a new house and we had cows for a while but we decided to go into poultry and we built a poultry house. We found it very rewarding in the way of money as well. We got more raised than we bought actually because we bought themaa day old and they always would give us three or four extras for each hundred, so we raised more poulets than we paid for. Very few of them died. During the summer we would take many hundreds of them to Safeway - so we got double the price. Q. Did you dress them and kill them? A. We killed them and dressed them but they were New York fashion - we didn't take the insides out - we kept them cool for the night and the butcher shop did the cl ea.ning. We plucked them, my husband knew a way to kill them you know, to pierce the brain and then they were plucked and with a blow torch any hair that was left was singed, then they'd be cleaned and wrapped in wax paper. As for the eggs, we had a good market for our eggs. People say that chickens smell, well our didn't. , we had a ventilation system that was really good. We never cleaned the litter it crone up to about 10,12 inches high and it was dry. We had to clean what dropped out and the wire under the roost so that the chickens would never get under the dropping pens. In the daytime when they were scratching, all the droppings would fall into the litter and it would dry. Q. Did you like working with the animaJ.s? Did you do as much work with the chickens as your husband? A. Yes. ActuaJ.ly in the summertime he would look after the big house and feed all the chickens in the big house, while I looked after the young ones on the range. of it. We had them fenced in and good grass so that they'd eat a lot I liked the chickens, and I had the garden and about an acre of lal-m with lots of flowers and trees, and we planted about a hundred trees. When we first moved there there was nothing but jack pine so we had to cut them all and replant. Cutting that lal-m was a lot of work - three hours with that lawnmower, sometimes people would stop there and look. I remember someone telling my neighbor - "You know, I just had to stop my car and look at that place". We sold it and left it. Ue went out of the 'chicken bus- iness because it wasn't very1good any more and chicken ranches were coming up where they'd have 30,000 chickens, they ran it much more efficiently. We bought this house two and a half years before we moved here. the farm that much but I miss the neighbors. I don't miss We had good friends and that �Q. is what I miss the most. It seems that a lot of women in the country were really more involved in the community than those in the city were. Do you think that their opinion was always respected as equals to the men? A. I'm not sure but I think they were. I know a lot of women used to take part in events, and they had a Ladies Aid of the United Church and then they had the Women'·s Institute but they didn't last very long. Put the I don•~ know why. Women's Institute together and no matter what - dinners etc. they always came to the Women's Institute, and they would do it. There was a lot of co-operative women, they helped in any way they could, if someone asked them to something to raise funds for the Cancer Society, they would and everyone knew that others benefitted. Q. One person I talked to remarked that if it wasn't for the women, the communities would not have got settled because women worked with groups. A. Yes, I think it was the women in the community who worked so hard. I rem- ember when we were in the first haJ.1., it was the Women's Institute Hall, it was only insured for : two thousand dollars and it burnt - it was worth five thousand. All the equipment burnt and everything. With four thousand dollars, the Community Center was started and we put out tenders and it was the bare necessities that were put up first and later on it was renovated. It was the Women's Institute who started all this and it wouldn't have been there if not for the women. Q. They were the organizers? A. Yes they were the organizers of the Hall, of course we got the co-operation of the men too. The women planned these things and of course you had to get the men - you can't build anything without the men. Q. Do you think it was more important to the women to have community organizations? A. Yes, I think so. The women looked at things a little differently than men. They raised their children and I think the women looked ahead more than the men. Q. How did the climate and physical environment of Northwestern Ontario affect your life? A. It curtailed our social life to a great extent in the winter time because the roads weren't open and when we went to school we had to walk on the sleigh trail of the horses which had gone by previously. Later on they made a snow plow and they had about 17 horses and a dozen men behind which would go ahead of the horses and clear a little snow if there was an especially bad snowdrift. In the summertime it wasn't that bad but again �(O the roads were very poor, the ruts were six, s even inches deep, but the old Tin Lizzy would go over anything. The cars then were higher off the ground so they didn't scrape the bottom. It took us about two hours to get to the city and that's a long time. We used to walk - five miles was nothing to wa']k to a dance, so we'd walk there, dance all night, and walk back home again. I think that we wanted to go so bad that five miles was nothing. Q. What was your earliest recollection of your mother or some other woman that was important in your life? A. I think Aunt Cassy was another woman who was very important in my childhood. She was always meek and merry, she'd be always laughing and talking. She wasn't really my aunt her name was Mrs. Carson, everyone called her Aunt c~assy. Q. What qualities about her did you ad.mire? A. Actually she was very jolly and I think this was what drew me to her more than anyone else. A child likes a jolly woman - she'd talk to the child- ren and laugh - I can't re~ber anything else but her personality. Q. You didn't get the impression that she found her life greulling etc. A. No, she had a very simple life - a house with two rooms , one was used a the bedroom and the other as a dining room and kitchen. I remember as a child papering all the wa1ls with newpaper and it wasn't rea1ly effective. see some people now papering their dens with newspaper . -would do that and everything was neat and claan. I Every year she The study was inside and because of the rough boards it was rea1ly hard to paper and I don't know how many layers of peper she had to use on that. Q. She never had any children? A. No. Q. How did she gain her 0)id w 1{Q(lLiskills? A. I don't know, she came from t C East and I don't know whether she ·just practised herself or if she found out from somebody else. Q. What do you think was the hardest part of being a country woman in the old days was? A. The hardest part was the work and I don't think there was much social life. Q. • •••• Very few people could afford reading material. If someone got a book it wa : passed around the whole community ..... Do you think there has been a positive change in the woman's role �• • A. even as farmwomen? I think there has been a big change. I think after the Second World War when women went out to work, there has bit by bit been a change in the men's attitute towards women. independant. Now the majority of women work and they a.re Before I remember women had to beg for m:oney from their husbands for groceries etc. Q. There doesn't seem to be the closeness among ruraJ. women as their used to be. A. No, one goes om:J way and the other one goes another way. We used to stick together in the old days, of course then we had no recreation and no transportation. They just get into the car and go now. Everything now is youth orientated and the older people seem to be left out. I don't think it is a matter of respect, but they don't seem to care for the old folks as much as they used to. The young women nowadays a.re much more freer. I think there has been a big change. Q. Do you think they lost something not being as close to other women? A. I think in a way they have. , ...... . Q, Can you taJ.k about your work in the co-operatives? How did you get involved in the first place? A. He had just one store in the community and you would go to the store and you'd have to wait a.round for an hour or a half an hour for them to open the store, !nd when they went to dinner for an hour the store would be closed again. So the farmers were getting pretty disgusted so they said the best thing would be to open a co-op store. be open aJ.l the time. If they had a co-op it would So the people donated logs and lumber and they had one carpenter and the whole store was worth it. The men and women both worked and this is where I got involved in the store, and the store was built and people started living - it was a wonderful thing for the community. You would sell your work, and the milk was taken to the dairies - of course there was the co-op dairy for a while. their milk than they ever did. that wa:sn 't very good. People got so much more for They did have a truck hauling cream but But the milk, the money really started coming in. Then if you needed anything from the city, you di:dn 't have to go there yourself, the co-op truck would bring anything you needed. You could sell everything like your hay, at a much better price than you used to. So then I got into the committee work and then they joined with the co-operative in Port Arthur and everybody bought shares. �• Q. When did it start to decline? A. Q. What was the role of women in the co-operative? 'A.. do? Girls and young women in the community would work there. Q. Did women do any organizing work for raising funds? A. Yes. cash. What kind of work did they The co-op should not have given credit, it should have been strictly This is when it declined. because people wouldn't pay their bills. I think they just should have had it on a cash basis. We could have sold the goods much cheaper if only cash were used. Q. Can you remember the P & D and what kind of effect it had on the community? A. Yes, it was a wonderful thing at first. The farmers would haul the ties up to Hymers etc. but when the trucks came, I think this was the decline of the P & D. Because people didn't go to the city by train anymore, they got cars and when trucks came, the people started hauling wood via trucks. Q. Did you know Mr~.Mitchell at all? A. No, I didn't but I knew some people who knew her very well. down in the other end, she lived in Whitefish. She lived way She was quite a woman, and that book she wrote, I just read it. Q. You said that your mother and father were from Finland, what kindoof things did your mother do to preserve her Finnish culture? Do you think that was important to her? A. I don't think at that time. She just worked and worked, she didn't do any- thing else, and there weren't too many Finns in the community. There were three other farms which were Finnish and that was in 1920 and mother had lived in an English community for years. So I don't think she did anything to restore it, except speak the language. I started learning and she would help me with the writing and spelling. Q. How did you feel? A. I don't know ...... . Did you want to preserve your culture? � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Impi Maki Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Canada - Ontario - South Gilles Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs. Impi (Tissari) Maki in Thunder Bay on June 27, 1978, by Georgina Garrett. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of three sides of two cassette tapes, available here as MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play the files.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. Mrs Maki was born in 1911 and lived in South Gilles for 59 years. Her father immigrated from Finland and worked in the US for two years before moving to Port Arthur and her mother then immigrated with three young children. Buying 160 acres, they cleared the land and began farming. The interview talks about her mother's work on the farm and raising a family of ten children. Discussions centre around the rural community, family life, farming, women's organizations and women's work. Mrs Maki speaks about being involved in political meetings, community leadership, the Women's Institute and the Co-op Store. The interview offers a detailed look at farm life in a rural community in Northwestern Ontario from women's lived experiences through life in the Depression, WWII and beyond. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-06-27 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/285dba208206fc0bfe4aefafcbc9e876.mp3 70a5ce426b5c2428430727363d248869 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/46a69a71f9f5e652e07d531449f0a86a.pdf feb2208a5fad6cb1805e2d4c99a9571f PDF Text Text ' i . l J '--'<'. ~ j HERSTOTIY PROJECT \ Mrs .. Forrester interviewed by Georgina Garrett Q. .Jhen did you start at Canada Car Mrs. Forrester? A. January, 1941. Q. How old were you? A. 16. Q. Why did you start working there? ·A. My stepfather was sick, he couldn ' t work and I had to quit school and get a job. Q. What made you choose Canada Car? A. They were hiring in those days and needed all they could get. Q. I know a lot of women worked there - were most of the peoply you worked with women? Q. Uhen I first started there were 200 men and 5 women. Did you like it?" A. Oh yes. Q. How did you feel abo.ut doing something that was kind of unusual for a woman A. Not at first. to do? A, I enjoyed it, I really did. Q. What did you do at first? A. I went into riveting. Q. ]ho taught you how to rivet? A. Bill Williams and Doug Holchak. Q. :Afhat did you work with? A. They are air guns and rivets. Q. TJhat were you building? A. The plane wings. Q. What kind of planes were they? A. When I first started they were Hawker Hurricanes, and then it was the Curtis How do you rivet? Helldivers for the States. Q. A. Was there a patriotic feeling about building these planes? I don ' t think so, it vras just a job. �Q. A. Was it mono~onous, riveting? No, I really enjoyed it . There are so many different sizes of rivets and sizes of guns and full of different things and parts of the wings. I worked on the whole wing , not just one piece of it. Q. tras it highly skilled? A. No. Q. In this picture you are standing across from another woman. A. Sitting, she was riveting, I had the gun on this side and she was bucking the bar on the other side to flatten th~m out. It took two to rivet, she was my helper. Q. Was there a close feeling amon€:, the women? A. Yes. Q. Why was there a close feeling? A. For one thing, the people were from right across Canada who worked there, we Of course there was a whole department, there was no fights or anything. rqet people from every province. Q. i!hat was there about the plant that .... ? I still write to them and go to see them. Has there any co-operation among the women? Did they teach each other dif- ferent skills? A. No, I had helpers that were women but we had a lot of boys coming in. about me? But what They got higher pay because I was a woman and yet I had to teach them. Q. Didn ' t your union ever complain about this? A. Nothing you could do about it. The women got paid lower than the men. Even when I was there for 4 years, the boys came in and they were younger than me but they got higher pay because they uere boys. And I was teaching them how to do it. Q. This was pretty -:"1ell universal in the plant· then. A. Yes, all over women were paid lower. Q. Did the women ever talk about complaining? A. No, not really, the odd one but one can't do anything about it. Q. Did you belong to a union? A. Yes. Q. And the union didn ' t .... ? A. That was the wage rate and that was it. Q. That ' s really awful. A. Yes it is. was. Now I wouldn ' t put up with it but those days this was the way it �Q. Do you think tha:.' s one reason so many women were hired? A. No, the men had gone to the services so they had to hire women. Once you worked there you couldn ' t even quit unless you were pregnant. Q. Why not? A. They needed people to build the planes during the war. Q. What, where you on a contract then? A. No. Q. Well why couldn ' t you quit? A. This was where you started work, you couldn ' t work anywhere else because you started working there because they needed you. Q. So you wouldn't be hired anywhere else if you .. had quit? A. Well you probably would because during the war years, you couldn ' t stay out of work. Q. Can you describe what a typical day was? A. No, I lived in F. W.. Did you live on the site? You would sign out your tools - your motor and a gun and light and get the rivets. Then you ' d start riveting and find where your job was. Q. Did you get any breaks in the day? A. Oh yes, a lunch and coffee breaks - one in the morning and one in the afternoon of 10 minutes each. Q. Did you associate after work hours with any of the other women? A. Yes, on Sunday the whole department wouldlmead down to the show at the Capitol Theatre so in the shows on Sunday night was all of Canada Car. Dancing on Sat. Q. Did Canada Car supply the clothes? A. Yes, at first we had one-piece overalls and after that there were two-piece overalls. We had to wear those two-piece blue uniforms with these hats to put our hair in. Q. How did the men treat you? A. Good. I was only 16 and I was pretty green. A couple of married guys gave me a book on sexs marri,,ge and birth control and I never thought about it and I read the whole book between lunch breaks. was awful shy but not after They explained it all to me. I 5 years in there. Q. Why was that? A. I don ' t know, they never treated you like girls or women. Q. fellow employee, that ' s all. So other than wages, you didn't encounter any discrimination? A. No. We were just another 3 �Q. "Why did you stop working there? A. The war ended and that was it, everybody was.: out the next day. Q. What about the men, were they laid off? A. Yes, we all were, some wer.e hired back for the buses they were building. My husband ' s brother was hired back to make buses, he stayed there two more years and then he went to the paper mill. Q. So you met your husband out there. Were you familiar with what the barracks in Canada Car were like for the women? A. I was just there once visiting a girl friend. The walls were like paper is all I could say about it. Q. Did you try to get another job after Canada Car? A. Yes, I was a telephone operator in the Fort William Telephone Exchange. Q, How was that different from working at Canada Car? A. The wages were better but I enjoyed Canada Car more. The straight work in the afternoon was split-shift. Q. The telephone operators were mostly women I guess. A. It was all women then. Q. Did you encounter discrimination in wages there? A. No. Q. Did any woman play a role in the union at Canada Car? A. Q. A. Q. There must have been but I forgot now. A. It didn ' t really affect me at all. How did you feel about the union? I couldn ' t say - I paid my union dues and that was it, Had the odd meeting. How did the war affect you in other ways besides going to work? I had no brothers to go or relatives that went overseas, it didn ' t affect me. Q. Did other women talk about it? A. Yes, a lot had their husbands killed or their brothers. Q. Do you know of any other war industries in Thunder Bay? A. There was a shell plant on Mission Island. Q. Did you move up the ladder when you were working since you worked for 4 years. A. No, I started at .42¢ and at the end of 4½-years I was getting .83¢ an hour They called it starch work. and we ·worked 12 hours with overtime most of the time. time Q. We felt bad about it. 4:30 from the afternoon to 4:30 in the morning. income tax at first, just the last year or two. Would you say it was satisfying work? On Sunday was double We didn ' t pay any �A. Yes, I enjoyed it. It wasn't boring.:, it wasn ' t sitting in one spot. You could walk around .. At the telephone excha?:lge you always sat in one chair for 4 hours, and that was it. This was different ..... . Q. Why did you walk around? A. Jell in that job I finished one part so I moved around to the next. Q. So you would rivet in all different parts of the plane. A. Yes, the wings and other parts. Q. Was there any kind of risk involved in it? A. Not really, on my 17th birthday there I was bending over and was drilling with the rivet. spot. My hair was hanging down and it caught that and I had a big bald A lot of times, for fun, somebody would pull out your three-pronged plug and put it in upside down and you woiu.d get a shock when you put the mot or on. It was fun - it I-mocked you on your rear end but it was fun. . Q. Uas there· a feeling of camaraderie? A. Yes. Q. Why do you think they had that kind of atmosphere? A. Made of the --kind of people - people from all over. The bosses didn ' t come and sit and watch you, you could joke with them. After the war we went to Winnipeg and we just stood there and everybody said "Hi Canada Car". You didn ' t know their names but you recognized their faces. Q. Was it the fact that you were all working on a project for the war? A. That had something to do with it but at the time it did.11 ' t enter our heads. Q. Do y ou think there should be more jobs like that for women? A. Yes, I liked my experience. Q. 6,800 yes. The paper said 700 but 7,000 worked there. Did you ever want to go back. Did you apply to work on the buses or street cars? A. No, I 1-1orked at the telephone exchange before I married and then I had two kids to look after so I just q_uit working. But I ' d go back tomorrow if I could go back to the- way it was then. Q. Is there anything else about working at Canada Car you can tell me? I heard there was a woman president or manager, because she had been an ene;ineer of an aircraft - McGill I think was her name. A. I don ' t remember her at all. Thank-you very much. There probably was ..... � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Jean Forrester Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Jean Forester in Fort William, Ontario on July 21, 1978. The interview was performed by Georgina Garrett as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. During the interview, Jean Forester recalls her time working for Canada Car from 1941 to 1945. Jean reflects on the discrimination in men and women’s pay, the role of the union, the types of planes she worked on, her relationship with her co-workers, and her usual work schedule. She also reflects on her time working as a telephone operator at Fort William Telephone Exchange. The recording consists of one side of a cassette tape, available as one MP3 file. (Click on the speaker logo to play the file.) Text is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-07-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Fort William Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/eb7afccfaf79f30f6fd125d4af1bf2b2.mp3 1f2c833c80ad77ccb16be0a33230181e https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/25da6b29fe075ca90c6d712ceedc77df.mp3 7d9f56703e8647b1a9bc5fac36193844 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Jean Holyk Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Released form signed (Alphabetical list says Texts not Found) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs. Jean Holyk in Thunder Bay. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. The discussion joins an ongoing conversation in two parts. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) A reflective conversation with Jean Holyk about Ukrainian women’s history, Ukrainian community in Thunder Bay and women’s rights and equality with a focus on the importance of education, culture and advocacy. The discussion also talks about immigration, Ukrainian history and the social networks for women and their families through the Depression, World War II and integration into community. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/1accc879249bb199cf359594dc40bfcc.mp3 868e969cf481dac65e618d886983bcae https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/b58aaa98591ccc38cf679856cde41cdb.mp3 c60746aa41276715b834bcefd5457990 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/3631e11906902a6102c112b46ad92cba.mp3 4ce7f442fe5f4ba44de6c3db3b585cb6 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/7fe3ed85066373a8901cc760f8e266f1.pdf 9bef97e7822049507657e2ee4f8e8aa6 PDF Text Text r '/ _, Mrs. Stephenson: Interviewer: (exactly as transcribed in handwritten form) Murillo Karen Dubinsky and Helen Lovekin (Children count to 5--fore run) K: We're taling today to Mrs. Stephenson, from Murillo. Could you tell me what year you were born in? Mrs. S: K: Oh, 1904. Yah, and how long have you lived here? Mrs. S: And I have lived in Murillo since I came here in 1924. K: Where from? Mrs. S: K: Really? Mrs. S: K: From England. Did you come straight here? And I came right to Murillo. Yah? Mrs. S: Well I came, yiu know, I landed in Montreal, and came to Fort William and came here. K: Did you come with your family? Mrs. S: No, I came on my own. Well, my mother brought me to Montreal and then I came up here alone, and I came to my Uncle (Lance)? farm. to. And I came up to that That's the picture of the farm that I came ----·------ Out on th~J i § : ~ And I lived there from then until I moved to Murillo, here in this little house, in about 9 years, about 9 years whenn I moved out here to live when I lost my husband. I couldn't live on the farm. I had to seel it and I moved to this little house. H: What did you arise on the farm? Mrs. S: Who me, I was orignially raised in England. �-2H: No, raise on the farm. Mrs. S: H: Oh yes, I was raised in England on a farm. No, I mean your livestock. Mrs. S: Oh yes, we had a dairy farm and sold milk to the Co-op Dairy. K: What dinds of work did you do on the farm? Mrs. S: Oh, outdoors. Well, I had to work outdoors and in, but my, I came to my uncle when my un~le was sick. He had asthma. You know what that is. you can work, some days you can't. Some days So I had to practically do his work and let the easy work for him to do because when you have asthma, on a muggy day, you're just like a wind-broken horse. You know, you can't breathe so I did the hheavy work and he had to j do what he could of the lighter jobs. So that's the way we managed. K: Is that unusual, then, for the woman to be doing the heavy work on a farm? Mrs. S: Well, I was raised in England in the war so in England in the war everybody worked. all--that's how I lost my thumb. on the farm at home. the farm there. And you did everythingo were going to do next. life. H: And there I worked England home. We all worked. Mids and I worked on Everybody worked. You didn't know what you You was fighting for That's all. You didn't go into the cities at all to work? Mrs. S: No. No. No, it was practically, where I was raised, �\ -3a farming district, and it was, it was, it was a little seaside resort and the biggest town was only four miles from where I lived and it was ... People came there in the sunnner for their holidays. H: In (Borden?) Mrs. S: No, it was called (Gould)? but it was, like (Bordnu-f)? It was a place like that . where they have people from London and oh the bigger cities come there for their holidays. H: So you lived on a dairy farm in England and you came here to work on your uncles's dairy farm as well? Mrs. S: H: And when you were married? Mrs. S: H: Yah. I was married to ... A dairy farmer? Mrs. S: No. bush. He wasn't a farmer. You know. He used to work in the Everyone worked in the bush here. Well, that's why werwere. His parentskkept, what is the Murillo Hotel now. His mother kept that as a boarding house and it was a big family and she did all the cooking, and a daughter, her grown-up , daughter, they, each had their jobs and they kept their roomers and they kept the schoolteacher and in those days, in those days, they dispatched the trains from Murillo Station instead of Fort William and they had two operators, day operator and night operator and they had .... There was about five men that stayed at Mrs. Stephenson's boarding house �-4- that worked at the station. And take different shifts, you know, and that went on for years and years, and they dispatched the trains from up here and in those days--when I came here, there was no--in the winter, you couldn't go to town with cars, you see, the roads weren't open. The roads weren't kept open then. H: How did you go to town? Mrs. S: With a team and sleigh. And the farmers would all grow potatoes to sell in winter and when it got cold, they would have to make loads. They would start off in the morning with a load of sixty bags of potatoes on and they would build the sleigh so that they would have a lantern or something in the centre to keep the potatoes from freezing, and they would cover them with a tarpolin and they would drive like that from here to town all winter long. Maybe three days a week, they'd do like that and, uh, take fruit and vegetables--fruit! --vegetables rather, potatoes mostly, into town. H: Was that ever one of your duties? Mrs. S: No. Noo for a mano I never did that. That was a day's work It'd start about six in the morning and it would take till about twelve to get there, you know, with a team, and a load of potatoes, sixty bags of potatoes on a load. all heavy horses. You see, and it was They'd have to take their time. And then they would put their horses in. They'd �-5always have a sale on potatoes. They would take them all to one place, to a score or somewhere, and they would put away, they would take their horses to rest and feed and they could unload their load while the horses were feeding and resting. You worked for your money then, you know. I suppose they got about 9Oj cents for the bag of potatoes, after they'd got them in there. K: We have a question about the climate and the environment of Northwestern Ontario. How did you feel that that that made your life particularly different. I guess the fact that you couldn't travel into town. Mrs. S ':' Well, we never knew the difference. I mean, as you got, as times in, as times got a little better, well, you got some kind of a car, or you got a truck, and you, the only thing. You did the same work on the farm, only you could get tinto town every day of the week with your stuff with a car instead of having to go in with horses. K: Did you feel that farming in Northwestern Ontario was comparable to that in England? Mrs. S: Oh no. There was no comparing. sell things like that over there. We didn't have to Over there, you---farming, you sold the one item and you grew the feed and everything to produce it. You know, you didn't have to buy ..... Here ..... You didn't have the winters to contend with over there, you see, you had winter, but it wasn't like the �-6Canaidan. over there. You didn't have snow or ice or that We were too near the sea. The sea helped keep you warm and you could grow something year round there. And your -rops are much better, you know. H: Mrs. Did you find the winters a shock? S: No. The funny thing was I ; dmdn't notice the winter. I was here. For quite a long time in that winter I never even wore rubbers. I wore leather boots the first winter I was here .. And I wore leather boots all winter the first winter I was here. I didn't notice the cold. But the longer you live here, yougget aclimatized to t this weather and you get so used to doing like the rest do I su suppose. Wear the clothes and the things that you wear here. But the first winter you come you don't notice the cold. You can stand the cold better than a Canadian the first winter. H: I notice it. Mrs. S: Hard to believe but that's the way it was with me anyhow. H: And so because you didn't notice the cold, it wasn't as difficult to do your daily chores? Mrs. S: H: No. No. You just lived your life. Mrs. S: You just .... Well I remember the first winter that I wore slacks, which I never did in England. I wore a pair of breeches the first winter, which in �-7England we never wore slacks. that when I left England. It wasn't got to You wore dresses. But the first winter here, I don't know why, but it was about the time when people was going into wearing breeches and that for winter. And of course I can knit because all English people can knit. So I could knit stockings for myself and mitts and things like that which help too, you know, help keep you warm. H: So it was first the effect of the climate on your farming that you found different. Mrs. S: H: No. Not too much different. No. Not much. Mrs. S: Because farming is farming. notice here. out. Only thing you Over there you don't turn the cattle You don't have to take them and break the ice and wait for them to drink. and see they don't fall and drown. You first turn them out and they can drink you see. You don't have to have--you don't have to have running water in the barns, and things like that over there. Here, you get up for that you see, because you have to keep the water from free~ing. H: Didn't you find that made your household work very difficult? Mws. S: Oh no. Because the water would freeze? You'd get so used to it that you don't notice it. You know you have to do it and it didn't seem to bother. �-8- H: What did you do--have a large barrell of water and cut a hole in it every day? Mrs. S: Every day yes. We'd have to go to the cattle. We Had to go to the bush and we had--there was running water in the bush and then in the winter you'd have to go and chop the ice up and make holes so the cows could drink. And stay theEe and see one didn't push the other in, you know, cause there's always a bah in a herd of cows. There's always some--like kids-- some gonna be there before the others, you know. And then after a while, if we get a serious winter, you might have to haul water for them or then it got that we used to try and dig a well in the bush and then we had to go and put a pump in or dip it up for them, you see. And you had to sa stay with them to see that they all drank and came home again. Or they maybe get frightened and one would push theo other in. Something like that. So you was busy all the time. And, I don't know. You got used to it. And that was the thing to do and you did it, I guess. H: Was Murillo a farm connnunity when you came here? Mrs. S: Well yes. Yes. There were mostly farmers here dear. All around, everywhere,-the farms were all a around the township you see and Oliver Township was eight miles square or somebhing, quite a big township, you see, and most of the farms was a hundred and sixty acres. �-9H: That's quite large. They wguilid have to clear that wouldn't they? Mrs. S: Oh yeso They'd have to clear that and when my uncle came, which was before I did, he saiddthey used to clear land. They'd burn over a peice of land, cut the wood, and burn it over to kill the stump and then, the next thing you know, they had another pice of land then, the next thing you know, they had another piece of land ready for the plough. K: I want to talk about the sotial life. stuff did you do? What dind of Maybe acitve community things with your church? _ _ _ _ _ ? Mrs. S: Yes, ! ah, they seemed to have had a lot of fun. When I came here their pass-time, they had a lot of dancing. Ah, you know, going from place to place and going to somebody's house SatufdEi.Jy night or something and have a bash. And they would load up a whole load and go somewhere to a dance. That was the thing to do. And they didn't mind staying up all night to dance. K: Did you go into town? Mrs. S: You couldn't go into town in the winter, dear. You--if you went to town--but there was trains-there were locals, they called them locals and there was a train went west to--where did they go?--Ignace--up the line somewhere. Fort William to ... H: Silver Mine? From �-10Mrs. S: Oh no. No. The train would take them to a station way up the line. Was it Ignace? Somewhere like that--that was the division point--division point, you see. And then it would go up today--there was a local that would go up today and then it would come back tomorrow and there was an operator at the station that you could buy a ticket, and get on the train and it used to go up in the morning one day and come back around noon or two o'clock or sometming and go down to town. into town like that. So you could go And then I think there was a train at night, about e i even o'clock, that if you got into town, you could catch thatt rain in town and it would let you off at a little station. So I can remember if the men wanted to go to a hockey game, they would get into town somehow and they could come home on that ~leven o'clock train to the station, you see, and they could get off, and they'd have to get home from there the best way they could. H: So the women stayed on the farms. Mrs. S: Well the women didn't go so much ehen as they do now. But the men went chiefly because the women didn't veem to want to go in the wintertime. H: Why do yout think they didn't want to go? Mrs. S: Well I think it was too cold, for one thing, dear, and they wasn't that interested in sport as they are today. H: Did the women do much socializing between themselves ' �-11- co-operation on the farm and that? Mrs. S: Well the farm women helped on the farm of course, and of course a lot of them had growing families and the younger ones, as they grew up, they went to town to work. But I can remember when I came they didn't go to highschool like they do today. You went to such a grade here, to about grade seven, was it? Here. Akd if you wanted to go to high- school, you went downtown and somebody would take you and keep you and you'd help in the house, help do the work, and help look after the children for your board and you went to highschool. what they did when I came here. they go to school today. But that's It wasn't like But I think they learned more that way because that was the thing to do and that was the only way they could get that much more of an education, you see. H: They had to work for it. That helps. Mrs. S: That helps, you see. And I think they were better for it because they knew if they wanted to get ahead, that's what they had to do. But today, this is my opinion, that the kids get it pretty easy today. You know. Then some of them did really well because they wanted to, you see. They wanted to go ahead. H: Because of the efforto Mrs. S: K: Yes. They put the effort into it? Was it connnon for girls to go on to highschool? �-12Mrs. K: s: Pardon? Was it connnon for girls to go on to high school? Mrs. S: Oh, the girls used to go too. T think there was just as many girls used to go to highschool as boys. Some of them did And they did very well. real wello it, you see. But that was the way they had to do There's one thing for sure, you didn't have the money to do it dear, and then after I came, then we had what we call "The Hungry Thirties". You didn't have very much then. Only what you worked for. K: How did the depression affect you? Mrs. S: Well, I didn't know then, you see. to it. We was used We was used to doing without for so long. How can I explain it? You see, we had gone through the war and things were hard. things you couldn't get. There was alot of You did with what you could and you made made a lot of things for yourself. know. You Everybody seemed to be able to sew or knit so that you clothed yourself and .... But there was a lot of things that you didn't have that you have today and nobody seemed to mind. You just had to make your life around what you could afford. K: Do you think the depression made people more generous in sharing what little they had? Mrs. S: Oh I think people were very good. figured it out, everybody was good. well. The way I had They got along It was like a connnunity, you see, and every- �-13- body got along just fine with eash other because that's all they had. Their pleasures ... they make their own pleasures and thei r little get-togethers and that were kind of home-made. But they enjoyed themselves, I think. K: If a family was suffering more than another, would there be cases where people would donate things? Mrs. S: Well they would get help. Or somebody ... If there was a case of sickness or something had happened, a disaster or something ... Well everybody would dig in and help. I think. Oh yes, people were good to each other, That's the way I saw them. You belonged to the community so, of course, you helped each other. K: How about the Wars, how did they affect the community? Was there a big affect? Mrs. S: K: The war? Either the first or the second World War. Mrs. S: Well, the first .... ! always told them I didn't know what war was. I mean, here. I didn't know what war was. H: Because they had been in Europe? Mrs. S: They were that far away from it that they didn't know what was was. volunteered. The men that went to war, It was something new. They didn't know what they was going into. H: Did you ever try to talk any of the men out of going to war? �-14- Mrs. S: No. No. It was no use to talk them ou of it. If they wanted to go they had to ... They had to learn what war was. of it. Because you couldn't talk them out Because it got to be in the second War they had to go whether they wanted to go or not. at first, yous see, it was the volunteers. But And in war time one volunteer is worth, at the time that that we thought to make go. practically volunteers. was going into. about. H: So the first war was They didnl t know what they They didn't know what it was all They had to learn that when they got there. Did your husband go? Mrs. S: No. old. Yes. He joined when he was seventeen years And he was in the first waro And he was in France and he came home and he came back. But then thank goodness, he wasn't my husband then. In the second war he was and he was too old to go. But in the first war the youngsters that did join at seventeen, they didn't know anything about war. They didn't know what they were getting into. K: What were some of the women's activities during the war as volunteer? Mrs. S: Well, they begun to take women int the services in the war and they worked chiefly as cooks and things like that. They were in the Women's Army and they would chiefly do women's jobs and that. didn't go to the front. Theyy Not ... but there was alot of things to do. H: How did the women manage to keep the farms with the men �-15gone? Mrs. S: H: Well the way I did I guess. You just did it. You just did it. Mrs. S: But, of cours~ on the farms around here, there was the grandparents. There was grandfathers and there was children in the clan that could help, you see. That was one thmng,--that people did here-- they were great to--like at threshing time--they go from one to the other and help each other. didn't have to hire help. You would come and help . me and I would come and help you. thing you know. That kind of a They did a lot of that. saving wood and things l like that. each other. They And They helped And got along like that. They didn't have to hire somebody to do the work. They did it themselves between themselves. No the people were good to work with each other and helped each other out quite a bit and it wasn't like it is today, dear. You wouldn't. now from then. H: Life is a different thing altogether Then everybody helped each other. Now everybody's for themselves. Mrs. S: Now everybody's for themselves. It's a different idea altogether now. And I don't know. People get along good together. If you belonged to Murillo or you belonged to Stanley 0r which ever place you belonged to you were that groip. together. H: So it was like a family. You got along �-16Mrs. S: Yah, like ... Side 2 Mrs. S: I forget how many years before I had enough money to go home. H: Oh yes to visit Mrs. S: H: Back home. But ____________ ? But you had to come here from such a veautiful clean part of the world into the bush. Mrs S: Oh yeso It was quite a difference you know. I can remember coming up here on the CN and I had to stmp overnight at j Capriole and I didn't know anybody but there's one hotel at Capriole and the hotel manager was used to letting people having them stay overnight, and catch a train the next morning at eight or something like that. And then I can remember catching ahe train and coming on and I suppose it was North Bay that I had to change trains and that was in the middle of the night. And I can remember as long as I live--! was only young you know. I suppose about nineteen. And I had to get off the train that I was on and go across the bridge, the river, and get on to another tBain to take the train to Fort William. SYou travel all day and all night and the next morning I got into Fort William about eight o'clock in :the morning. Then I had to phone my incle that I was in Fort William and had to wait at the station 'til he drove into the station to get me. But you see �-17by the time I came from the time they came, he had got a car and ... But when they came they had to come right on to Murillo and then the train didn't put them off at Murillo and they put them off at a Kaministiqua. And they walked back, they walked the trac~, mmy uncle and I walked the track from Kam to Murillo. is. H: And you know what walking the track I walked the track lots but it was no fun. With all your bags and everything? Mrs. S: Oh they left their luggage. They just walked back. They just left their luggage in the station and told the man at the station to send their luggage back to Murillo, on a train that would come down. K: Was that quite an adventure for you, travelling here by yourself when you were ... ? Mrs. S: Well, it was, yes, dear, because you didn't know the country and you didn't know the people. Bunt I'm one of these ... I'm the one that should go to Canada because I mix with everybody. mind it. I didn't It was quite an adventure but then it wasn't like it is today. You had bunks--bunk up here to sleep on--You didn't mind jt, though. It was something new--something you'd never done beforeo K: We mentioned the Suffragist England. Do you know anything about the Suffrage movement in Canada? Mrs. S: No dear, I don't know very much about the Suffrage movement at all. I wasn't used to it at all. �-18- K: How did you think about it then? Did women discuss it, do you remember?> ? Mrs. S: We never seemed to. I can't remember in my raising we had nothing to do with the Suffrage. Only thing I used to ... the men used to tease the women about being Suffragettes, but they never were. H: Not where I came from, they weren't. From the country rather than the city? Mrs. S: From the country ... they ... no. They might have been in the city or in the bigger cities because, you see, in England--England is a small country, but their cities are big and its cities. Fort William and Port Arthur. It isn't It's cities like Birmingham and places like that where you're really crowded. K: Do you think that, maybe the women in the country, in rural areas had almost an equality with men, then, since they were doing similar work? Mrs. S: There wasn't, as near as I can remember to Murillo, there was nobody that really ... they were just farm people ... They weren't business people--you know what I mean--I'm not slighting them or anything--they were just farm people. H: Everyone was valuable. Mrs. S: H: Yes. Yes. They weren't ... Yes, I understand. Mrs. S: They weren't beeter than somebody else or anythingo They were a nicely closely-knit �-19connnunity. You know, everybody was friends with everybody else. And they grew up together and I think it was an awful nice way to live. So they seemed to get along good together and the kids went to school together and they did everything. H; Together. Mrs. S: Together. It was quite a togetherness. That's the way I figured it anyhow. Yes. I thought it was nice what they used to do. K: So women were happy with their lives. Mrs. S: Yes. They were quite happy dear. They were quite happy to live the life that they were living. And they seemed to have a good time together, and nobody suffered I don't thmnk. Nobody suffered. If they didn't work for it, they didn't have it, that's all. H: And that would be a whole family's fault. And not just one member of the family. Mrs. S: No I don't think so. I think they got along quite well. K: You think a life of a woman an a farm has changed alot? M~s. S: K: Oh yes. In what ways? Mrs. S: It's different altogether dear. know nothing, you see. The women don't They got machinery and most of the women don't have to go out to work. then they got milking machines. And Some women that really want to get along, well of course they help �-20outside. But it isn't like it used to be where everybody had their jobs to do. to or not. it. Whether you wanted If you didn't do it, you didn't have That's all. But now, you see, they all have machinery to work with, and they have cars. Nowg instead of the women staying home and raising the family, the women are out to work and they've got somebody to babysit. K: How do you feel about that? Mrs. S: I don't like it. I think that I wouldn't do it if I had to start out tomorrow. my own family. I would want to raise But now I know there's young people like you girls who get married and they're in town doing a job and they've got a hired girl to Jlook after the house and raise the kids. not right. That's not making a home. has to be home. Well that's A mother If you want a home it's got to be mother at the head of it. H: The mother's the head of the family? Mrs. S: The mother is the one that keeps the thing together. That's my opinion. young tomorrow. That's what I would do if I was If I was young, no matter. husband was working, J If my would be home, looking after the house, and his meals would be ready for him when he got home from work. If he didn't get home to have his meal when it was ready, that would be his fault. Yes because the trouble today--I'm not slighting anybody--but the trouble today with them �-21all, you see, if they go. The trouble is alot of them work in town, come in, and instead of coming home, they have to go and have beer before coming home. A beer gets to two or three and they might come to supper at six o·' clock or they might not get home 'til all hours of the night. Well that would be their fault. If I was keeping house, they'd come home to supper at six o'clock, and the supper would be put away and if he come after, well, that would be ... H: Too bad. Mrs. S: Too bad. They'd have to eat wherever they was visiting, or ... because I don't hold to that. I don't hold to these .... There's kids here in the villages ... I've seen them raised from little. seen them raised from this high. I've Well, now they're old enough that they're married and they're working in town. Well they've got a hired girl to run the house and they're working a computer in town~ and the maid is raising the children and getting the supper and all this crap. Well that's not being a mother, I don't think. H: One thing that always interested me, was that when you live onaa farm, you have a lot of jobs to do. Mrs. S: H: You have a lot of jobs. You have a lot of chores and, how do you manage the children and do your chores at the same time? Mrs. S: Well, of course, I haven't got any kids, but the �-22ones that had them--they take the kids with them-well of course they'll ... And now they don!t do like they used to because, you see, theyhhave machinery to milk the cows. that. The men can do the milking and And the mother can stay in and get the breakfast and get the kids ready for school and things like that--Where the mother used to go out and help some too, you see. But now with the machinery to work with and that, the men could do that without the mother helping. by, they used to go out. But in days gone I can remember when I came, my aunt and my uncle went to out to milk. Then I got that I could go out ando .. When I got used to the cows, in a few days, well I could go and milk. And she could take a little longer to get up and have the breakfast ready when we came in from milking and I took over her place in that business but when I came here it was a little different than I was used to but I was used to working on a farm in the old country for wages, for working for somebody else and being paid for it. But all that I had to do outside was help milk and feed the cows. And usually the boss's wife she would help too and she would look after the chickens and pick up the eggs and all that. H: So on your own farm though, if there was just you and your husband? Mrs. S: You helped each other, yes. �-23H: You split up the work ... Mrs. S: Yes. We each had our chores to do and helped each other, you see. And when it was like planting potataes or digging potatoes, well I was out helping with him. We helped each other. The more you helped each other, the more you got for your-you know--you got more of a something together for yourself. You did that. That's the way you live. other. I r:nnean that is Isn't it? life. Helping each When you get married, well, you help each other and that's the way it was with us on the farm. And I used to love to go to the bush and get wood together. He would cut it down and I could help him bring it up and put it in piles and I'd go and help haul it home with him and things like that. Well it was something to do you see, because you didn't want to be sitting in the house and your husband out working alone all day long. K: You could go and help him. Do you think that made for a happier marriage? Mrs. S: I think so, Yes. You were helping each other. You was doing it for your own good and the more you did the more you got for yourself. the way we used to do. That was And then your friends and neighbours, you'd get up a big pile of wood, and you, d go ... I wouldn't go but the man would go and help your neighbours haul wood and three or four neighbours together, they would be, say at our �-24place this morning, and one • or the other neighbours this afternoon or maybe two or three places in a day. It all depended on the size of the piles of wood. And they get their wood all cut upa and then the woman would stay home. If she wanted tojshe could split a little wood or do something just to pass the time. Or you could sit in the house and read if you wanted to. have to do all the work. You didn't So that's the way we got along in those days. H: You were happy y~ ou were doing it. Mrs. S: We were happy, yes and then you'd go to a neighbours and visit or have a game of cards. was great. a big thing. It In my younger days here, cards played You know, everybody played cards. So you never was lonesome. H: Most people around (to see)? Mrs. S: Yes, say I lived here and you could have lived two or three miles from here--we had a car--and you dould go there and you'd sit and talk for a few minutes, and out would come the cards and you'd play cards, and have a good cime together and tease each other and have a lunch and come home. And that's what we used to do for pass-tmme, and they used to have lots of dances and always they'd go somewhere every Saturday night and danced all night. I used to have a good time years ago. think far better than they do now. The young I �-25people now--You don't see them! Of course, the young people, now, they get on t the bus in the morning here at seven thirty, they go into town and some go to this school, and some go to that, wherever they go to school, and then they're in town all day. You don't know whether they're at school or where they are. school. H: Half of them aren't at They're sunning the street. You talked about every winter, your water being frozen, How did you manage your wash? Mrs. S: Oh, we used to melt snow many years ago and sometimes it would snow and maybe it would pour and you'd save the soft water, and wash that day. I still do it. I can't get over saving myself water. K: It sounds like ... Mrs. S: H: And is it ever beautiful to have a bath ... In soft water. Mrs. 3 In soft water. I know. And does it feel different. It's beautiful dear. difference in soft water. winter There's so much I always- .. and even in the when I wash my hair, if I haven't got soft water, I melt snow. I melt snow for to wash my hair and things like that. H: And I still do it. It's good for her hair. Mrs. S: Oh yes, beautiful. But, on the whole, I suppose we've had our hard times but it was hard in the �-26hungry thirties. H: It was hard in the thirties. In what way? Mrs. S: Well, in the thirties, yous see, my uncle had died and my aunt and I was alone. I think for about eight years my aunt and I farmed alone and I got somebody to--I got a neighbour to help to do my ploughing and the seeding in the spring and I did .. I could cut the hay and everything and I used to cut hay and coil it and then I would get two or three of the neighbours would come one day and help haul it. I had a thing to unload it with and I could build my own stack. I got all kinds of pictures --I don't know where they are now but I always had pictures of eveeything I did. used to build my stack. lightbulb myself. And I Now I can't put up a But then I used to finish up the stack and ride down ... come down the hayfork. H: That's a bit of hard work. Mrs. S: It takes time to do that. Well, it's talent, yes, you have to know how. But I used to do that and I could build my own haystack better than ... I could build it. you see, L,.r,.k I got thekknack. unload a bale of hay. But, You know, you , You build your load so that you can take off a big forkfull here and you take off a big for~full there, and so on and then when the hay gets up on the stack, whenever you're driving out the team, you say, woe, and r you stick your fork in that hay and the stack o �-27might be from here to over thereo If I want to put it over there, I push it there and then I say ''Trip up.'' H: ~lfXXXHXX-i:moqI~~ I see. Mrs. S: And they trip ito And you trip it you see, and you don;t fork lift trip it, you just buildi it.H: Oh, yah. Mrs. S: And the next forful comes up and you put i it over there. If you want to make your corners, you just push your big for~ful. It was up in the air. You could do anything with ito much hard work. There wasn't that You just pushed it. f\11.d then you yelled to them to trip. H: That's a good idea. Mrs. S: That's how you did it. stack of hay. It was nothing to build a It was as easy to make it in a stack as it was to put it in the barn. H: That's a good idea. Mrso S: And then, she bails it, you brought it right up to the }Ast forkful and then I'd have to ride the fork downo I didn't mind. I was young then. I was so j used to it. I don't suppose I could unloose the .................... ? That's the kids you know. I ...... . H: Did you find that .... did you feel freer in Canada than in England? Mrs. S: Oh no. England. I don't know that I was freer than In We were free there. But I was free in �-28Canada. You were free in Canada. with the crowd, you're oKay. H: If you get along You're one of the gang. You didn't have to fit mn anywhere? Mrs.S: -> No. And if ... Well people weren't stm.ck up then, like they are now. They got ... you see--going to town to school--going to town--and they've got to go to town--and they've got to dress. They've got to go to town to go to the show or to go to for dinner or something or they have to dress ~k the eveningo Where--when you would go out together you only had one dress. H: For going out? Mrs. S: So that didn't make me different. That's all you had so you didn't have to be better than Mrs. J llones. I think years ago, they was much happier than they are boday. That's what I notice. It's got to be a little too above themselves. You see in England, you have the different classes. There's the upper class people, the wealthy people and they treat the people that work for them real well. You are treated real well if you work for somebody else because they're born to the gentry. If you're not born in that class, you're not in that class, in England, j you know. I don't know dear, but this is one thing I will always be proud of--that-when the Queen came to Old Fort William, I had a friend of mine, he used to teach school. might--What school did you go to? You �-29H: I didn't go to highschool here. Mrs. S: H: Oh. But Karen did. Mrs. S: Hid you go to Fort William? Mrs. S: Mr. Love--he's a highschool teacher. • ? h 1.In. Do you know Well he's a great friend of mine. friends. We're We've been friends for over twenty years. He used to come to our place out on the farm. loved to come there. tracks with him. He And I used to walk the I said I don't know how he ever wanted to be a schoolteacher, because he loved trains. And I walked miles and miles of tracks with Bob. He hated bricks and mortar. Ref came from--he was s born in the States and New York and Philadelphia and Boston and all those places and - - - - - - - - - - -and he was quite happy here-out on the farm--he used to be--I used to--whenever he wanted to go up the tarack I'd go with him-and Lazzy used ... I'd say to Laz, do you want to go with us? No. My husband. track. He used to work on the track. Laz. No, he didn't want to go on the He'd walked all the track he'd wanted to. So I used to go with Bob and we used to go on the track and he comes here yet. He comes here for his holidays and he comes here for Christmas. And everythmng. you know. H: We're just likeoone of the family, And he has house down in Vickers Heights. Were you able to meet the queen? Did he man~ge �-30something so you could go and see her when she came to Old Fort William1 Mrs. S. H: Who, Bot? Yah. Mrs. S: Oh, well, he comes. wants to. He comes here and stays if he John, next door, I didn't know John. He was from Nottingham and his mother wanted me to come over and visit her because I was so good to John so I went to Nottingham--you know Nottingham forest--it's like it was in Robin Hood's day. H: Smaller maybe, but it's still there. Mrs. S: Yes, and another day I had a birthday and the first phone call. I answered the phone and that was John, from home. And he said, what was it now? He said something and then he said, could I talk to Mr. Brown? And I said, John, where areyyou? knew his voice. Oh, he said, I'm home. I I thought maybe he'd come back to Canada and he was ringing for to come here. well wait a minute. knows your voiceo So I said, I'll get Charlie see if he So I got the cat from sleeping and put him up to the phone and I said this is your pa. And he couldn't understand. He couldn't think that that was John on the phone, you know. He cou ldn't realize it was John. He couldn't realize it was his voice over the phone, you see. But I knew his voice right away. He said that �-31he wanted to talk to Mr. Brown. voice. It was John's He didn't say it was John. He said could I talk to Mr. Brown and I sai4, John, where are you? H: I was hoping he was back in Canada. Do you feel that England is still your home, or have you be ..... . Mrs. S: Oh, England is home. Eng! and will always be home, dear. H: That's your home? Mrs. S: Oh, yeso Because when you was raised there for twenty years that's home. I mean you went through a lot with England. H: Well you did the first world war. Mrs. S: Yes. Oh, yes. And, ~h9 I don't know. English people are.o.they're a wonderful gang too. wonderful. And what they went through. They're Nobody knows what they went through. I mean, we lived right on the coast, you see. We looked out, from where I j lived, we looked out onto the Atlantic Ocean like looking out over Lake Superior here. And you see, we wasn't a bit afraid of the Germans. We wasn't afraid. We wasn't afraid of anything because there was the naby--so far apart. We were surrounded with ships out as far as you co could--you saw them and we as cocky as heck. We wasn't afraid of anything because the Rgyal Navy was guarding us. And sometimes you'd be in bed at night and you're bed would shake under yj ou and �-32you'd hear the guns. Well, that's all right. The Ger .... we, where I lived there was small ships brought food into" • • - - - - - - - - - - -and the Germans you see, they wanted all the supplies. They didn't want the people. didn't want to kill us. They They wanted the supplies and they would catch our little ships coming in with a load of flour or whatever they was coming with and they put ... there was about three men on a motor ship, you know, and they put them in their guns and take their supplies and they didn't want the men, nor the shipo They wanted them to keep bringing supplies to England so they could steal them. H: Do you think that experience of being not afraid and a little cocky, because that was a dangerous place to be .... Mrso S. H: It was but we weren't afraid. I know. Do you think that helped you when you came up here? Mrs. S: H: I think so. Not being afraid? Mrs. S: Because. But you see. We got that. H: We got that in us, too. It's born in us. We can't help it. You're fighting foro It's yours and you're not going to give i it up. That's the way we're made. So you took that attitude to Canada and made a good life. Tape tw8 Mrs. S: And there was an Englishman ~ , ate h acer that he �-33taught with--a teacher that was English born. H: (question inaudible) Do you think that you grew anymore, spiritually, after you came to Canada? Mrs. S: Oh, I don't know, dear. I think by the time you're twenty years old, you have grown to what you're going to be. H: Don't you? Personally I agree with you. Mrs. S: I mean, we will always be English because we were English. We were born English. You're English and that's it. There ! s something. You see, if somebody says something about England ... I don't know about you ... But to me, if anybody says something about England, I'm right up there. Right away. England comes first. H: So you always kept that with you, here? Mrs. S: Oh, yes. Well I was born an Englishman. I was raised an Englishman, and I'm still English. always be English. English people, there's s something in them that's there. It's there. You can't help it ... I don't know. thing about them. war. I'll Yes. There's some- We went through so much in the I can remember when I was only going to school in the first war, when Germany, when they really butchered the Belgians. And one of the head--the head men of Belgiam was shipped out to where we lived, - - - - - - - , he was sent there �-34- for him to be safe. And us kids, we put on a program, you know, put on a real concert, and the money we made was for the Belgians. And I remember--! was thinking about that poor old man last night--! forget his name--but he was only a little man. He still wore his badg--honours, you know, and ... but he was dressed as a gent~ ema.n. And he thanked us kids ... we were only kids and he thankeduus for doing it for his country. eried like a baby, and I never forgot him. And he He was an oldish man, but you see, he was just as true to his country as we were to ours. proud of us kids. his country. H: And he was so We were only kids doing this for I'll never forget him. Well, you came down here, shortly, ahy, not too many years after the war ended. There's people from all different countries here, that might have been fighting each other in Europe. Was there tension between these different groups? Mrs. S: No, I still, I got very good friends that are German. And I treat them as friends. I mean I wasn't fighting 'them--they weren't fighting me. They couldn't help ito H: So people find themselves caught in these situations. Mrs. S: Yah, but you don't let it bother you. friends. Just be They didn't want to fight any more than we wanted to fight. were told, you know. The just had to ~do as they I still got lots of German �-35friends. And some of them are real good, you know, well raised people, too. They're well raised some of them. H: So, in Murillo itself, there wasn't any conflict between people from different nationalities? Mrs. S: No. The only thing, if you said something to them, you know, oh, you bloody Englishman or something like that, well, you just let that slide by. know. You never let that upset you. English. here. You You're still I remember there was an English boy out He married a girl from overseas. He married her and they came over here and they had some kids and then she went home and s~e took the kids home and then she shipped two bask here and she kept two at home. Well, now the one come back here from London when he was a young man and he when he come in the door one day and he didn't even talk like himself. Oh, I s said, oh, for gosh sake, we got a cockney! And he looked at me and he had a good grin and we've been friends ever since. I said, oh, gosh, we've got a cockney and, you know, he talked like a cockney. H: ? K: We've been learning about something called Women's Institute5 that were big in the rural areas. Were you involved ... was there a Murillo Women's Institute? Mrs. S: No, dear, I wasn't. when I came. The Institute was about done I can remember when I came there �-36was an Institute but it was about dying out. K: Do you remember what kind of things they did? Mrs. S: Oh, yes. They did a lot of work for ... you know, they did a lot of sewing and things like when the war was on and they had--ane thing they did have-they had a nice library and Mrs. Merkly kept it-up where our store is now. She had a rooming house there and one little place about like that; she had for a library for the Women's Institute and you could go there and borrow bookso She used to keep account of the books you got and then she put them in and kept track of who had what, you know. But the Institute died out about the time I came. Well, it's like everything else, the old ones got too old and the younger ones wouldn't carry on. Not like it is in our church; I'm an Anglican. And we had a WA, and a WA mid the--the WA in the church, they do all the work that the men won't do. H: Yes, basically. Mrs. S: And you see, we used to put on big meals,--dinners and things like that and make the money and I was the secretary--! was the treasurer. money. They used to say we give her the money and boy she hangs on to it. money. I handled the She knows how to handle So they would put me in the treasurer. There was the president and the secretary and the treasurer. But the money all come to me, you see. I was the treasurer. And I knew how to put it away �-37- im the bank and keep it. H: Keep hold of it. Mrs. S: Yah. Keep hold of it. earn more, you see. I didn't ... and make them Not because you had a few dollars in the bank that you would make. You had to keep on making more. H: You ran your household that way as well? Mrs. S: K: Yah. I ran the household that way too. Was it special for you to have the opportunity to work with other women in associations like that? Mrs. S: Well, I can get along with people, you see. don't care what I say. I I think this is where I get along and if I want to swear, I swear. Now we've got a minister and I think we're going to like him. He said to me the other day--he came to the church, they had the special service when he came. four or five churches under him you see. a minister yet. He has to be ordained. He has He isn't But he said to me--I think we're going to like him because he's one of these mixers. soon as I can. He says, "I'll be out as Have you got lots of children?" On our street, you've got everything. There are kids and cats and dogs and bicycles and I said you name it and we've got it. all right with us. So he's going to get along So the kids they all come here. They all come here, you know. All the neighbours' kids come here and I trust them. them. I buy candies for I go to town and I geep them, and they can �-38have two each. And they help themselves. know where the can is. They They go and get the can and they bring it up and put it on the table and "I want that one" and "I want that one". say "two each". I'll And they take the two each, however many there is there, and they put the can back and put it away. I don't give them to them, they help themselves and I trust them. trust them to take two each. to town with them. I And sometimes I go I got a bus to go to town, too. It's a school bus that takes the kids to school and then it picks us up at twenty minutes to ten. It goes into town to the bus stop outside of Eaton's, and Eaton's are very good to us. We're allowed, j f we are tired, we can sit on those chairs where they try on shoes and that, they let us do that. you. And I said, "Well that's very nice of You're doing that for us. eat up at the dining room. we have a meal in town. I said, we will So we go there, and We go away, you see, about twenty to ten and they pick us up again. picks us up again at two in the afternoon. come there to the hbs stop. body laughs at us. The bus So she And of course, every- You see, and they'll say, "Oh, here comes Murillo bus',' you know,, " There's lots of them, there's about seven of them come all one after the other. And we'll be in between sometimes. "Oh, here comes the Murillo bus". We don't care. �-39We answer them back, that's all. H: As a woman, you never thought of yourself as a specific interest group. You never set yourself apart from what the men were doing. __________________You talked about how you helped each other· Mrs. S: Oh, we helped each other, yes. And we always-- when the boys played ball, it was always as long as I can remember, you know, you went to the ballgame. And the Kakabeka ladies would be behind their team and we would be behind ours and we used to fight like tom cats. Don't you remember going to ballgames? H&K: Yes. Mrs. S: Oh, my godo But you know I've lost interest in the younger generation. They don't play ball like the old ones usedx to. But we had a hockey team and we had a ball team. Every village had a ball team, and of course theirs was the best, you know that. each other. That's how wef got along with And then we always had a dinner or something at the end of the year, the and everybody turned out to that, and everybody gave to it and cooked for the dinner, you know, and you bought your dinner just the same. was the community as a whole. THat It was much better then than it is now. H: You think it's gone down. Mrs. S: It's gone down. The younger people, you see, �-40they get on the bus and go to town to school. They mix with eigy kids. In high school they mix them with a different type of individual and it got to be that our kids have left us. You know, from they're marrying people away where they used to marry, into the families here, and now they've gone to town and they're marrying into people that we don't know and we don't know none of the-of the woman t There waa one of the boys that--Tommy--thatkkeeps the post office. One of her boys was married Saturday night. Well he's married to somebody from town that we don't know. to know her. You know. We've got to get And the boy next door, he's going to marry a girl from town. Well she was out cutting the grass for him yesterday, and she's going to be all right. her working. So I said ... I seen I knew who she was. So I'm out and I said, "Well, you know, this is a funny thing", I said, "When I'm cutting my lawn, there's never nobody that comes to help". But I said, "Allan, he's got a girl to help him''. laughed. And she just I knew who she was, you know. But I said that never happens to me. H: You think she'll fit in better because she's ... Mrs. S: H: Oh, she'll fit in because she's a good worker. She's a good worker. Mrs. S: Yes. She was out and they cut all the grass yesterday. So they're not going to lookaany �-41- worse than the rest of us. Oh, no. And over there, in that house, the boy that lives over there--he drives one of these tractor-trailers. And in· the winter, there was only once in the winter, that it snowed and then it rained and it was all frozen and I couldn't do a thing with the snow, you know. And I thought I heard a tractor closer to me than over on the other side-or there--and I went out to see what he was doing and he got me ploughed out. And I said, "are you Danny?", and he said "no, I'm David". So I said "well, that's good of you to plough me out". I said, "let my pay you for doing it." He said "no. The pleasure is mine". He wouldn't let me pay him for doing it. H: ? Mrs. S: So, you know. This is young people. people are good. H: They're still good. But there ... They're changing. Mrs. S: His wife is from town. Her name is Margo. the lady down there is Sandra. all friends. belong to us. Mrs. Brown. Then You know, you're And the Mias up here is our kids. The Rias on our street is our kids. H: The young They all The don't belong to Mrs. Jones and They belong to us. They're our kids. When they were growing up, before Murillo had more transportation, ah, people weren't living on their farms and just making what they cgumd from it. Were all �-42the kids able to go from farmhouse to farmhouse? Mrs. S: Oh, yes. They used to be friends just the same. And kkate. And they walked miles to get from one place to the other. They had to walk then. They watlldn't do it now, but they did then because that was the only way they could get there you see. H: So if the family was busy--if a baby was being born-or some thing ... Mrs. S: H: Oh_ yes, well somebody would look after them. The ki.ds. Mrs. S: Oh sure, yes. It didn't make no difference if there was six in the bed, as long as they got that sleep. Oh, no--the people in the village--you were a connnunity. I noticed that if you belonged to Murillo, you belonged to Murillo. H: And Murillo belongs to you. Mrs. S: Yah, but if you go to town, you don't know your next-door-neighbour. Well here you know everybody. And you expect to be friends with everybody. And when people come here to live I get a whole bunch of new neighbours. Well, I'm not one to go snooping around to know what their name is, you know, just to be friends . with them. I don't want to bore into their house or anything, but wlll, I let them know to come on up sometime and have a cup of tea, and that's it, and then you're friends. That's what we do in these communities like this. We're all friends and it used to be the same at �-43- home, and where I lived at home, we had three churches, and each church, if one church was having something special, the other two churches closed their doors so that everybody could go to the church that was having the--that's what we used to do and there was Anglican and United Methodist and Weslian Methodist. And when there was something special like there was in war time, there was always something special, it was nothing for all three ministers to be in the pulp8t together. That's the way we got along. H: This is the best way to live. Mrs. S: Well I think that's the way to live. is just as good as another. Because one It's the same--just-- you know, you're all going to the same place one way or the other, aren't you? H: ? Mrs. S: That's what I think. Oh, you girls, would you like a cup of tea? K: Yes please. I meant to ask you a question, your opinion on something that recently happened. You may have read about it in the newspapers, where a woman and man had a farm--a married woman, you know, a couple, had a farm together and they both worked it but I believe he had another job where he put the money down for the farm so it was in his name and then they divorced and they decided that, because even though the woman had worked, probably just as hard as the man on �-44- it, that she wasn't entitled to i it because she didn't put the money in. Did you feel, when you and your husband had the farm, that it was eqally yours together? Mrs. S: Well, I never knowed about it dear, because I came here to live with my uncle and my aunt and I worked, you see, because I had to do a lot of outside work because when he was really sick-you know what asthma is like--you can't breathe and so he had to do the running around jobs that he could drive a car to do, and I used to do his work. But we worked together and we got along together, you see. And then of course when he died, my aunt and I stayed on the farm and we run it, for, I guess, eight or nine years. Then I got married after all that time, you know. K: And it was your farm. Mrs. S: And it more or less fell back to me. just feel back to me. I never--it There was no, well, done by law--it just came to me. K: You think, !m general though, that if a man and woman purchase a farm together or the man happens to pay for it, that it is theirs, do you think? Mrs.~ Well, yes, if the man and the woman wasn't related. If they weren't of the same relatives, relations, I think they should have some agreement, yes. We always got along because you see I was young and they were old. I was young enough to do the work �-45and I mean I didn't grow up with ihe young people of my age here. school with them. So it wasn't the same as I went to Was it? We were friends but ... It wasn't as if it was people that was born and we were raised together. ( end of tape) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Kathleen Stephenson Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs. Kathleen Stephenson in Murillo, Ontario. The interview was performed by Helen Lovekin and Karen Dubinsky as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. During the interview, Mrs. Stephenson recalls what it was like moving to Canada from England, farming, community ties and social life in rural Northwestern Ontario, education, and life during the Depression of the 1930’s. The recording consists of three sides of two cassette tapes, available as three MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Murillo Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/cc95d3a6aed99080c47f1f44758a89aa.mp3 4f7a3eb1f17bef36fdafa2def7e44377 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/d038e100d90a8e60e75ef8402197634f.mp3 accb5b5a4e2fab9e49efd342aa2328e3 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/1119fddeda4826b7ce1c5516866abb3b.mp3 25c30a725aec5d09169d1d0e2f1d04e3 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/d38dc9d8b9996fba2635845f4a1e9671.pdf d8de4ce33a011e3636dcd9c33d32c6d5 PDF Text Text Ksenia Dubinsky Karen Dubinsky, interviewer. Inter.: K.S.: I'm going to start off by asking you what you felt like when you arrived in Canada. First time I come to ... First time I come to St. John - New Year Day in 28, New Year Day in the morning. We eat Breakfast and we going to the larlming and that. After that we coming to .. I don't know what place. Then we spent lots of time in the office with paper and everything because it's not one person coming. And I coming in a boat called Mount Rose(?) , English boat (Mount Rose)? In war time that Mount Rose going to .......... and I watch him because German destroyed that. Yhh. I hear that. In fact that day what happened to that boat. You know. In 42. And after that we spend lots of time in that office before x everything else. After that we going to some place. I don"t know what place because it's hard. You don't know nothing. And we stayed to wait. One time for another train - coming in a train. We wait for other train so long.w After we going. And I see Canada. And that make me scared because I see bush and I see big big mountain. Something like that. And that scare me because I coming from really nice place - like Saskatehewan - this (was) really nicer because we got bushes and lots of villages and (the) villages got lots of trees. Beautiful, you know. Something else. And that make me scared. Really scared. And I believe that after that we come into Toronto and I see people through the window, through the train window, you know. Stopped. Just looking. I see nice. Nice. Lomk to me like better. Before I don't know places. I od xx don't 1now nothing. Inter : ~:i~e,im•Mtl!llltD4'1 f'l' Iie!■■..e s~ffJ;JI~c,iz~2t~o e,-.-c .e:;e=;a,..~~-=•G•·iit:t. K.S.: Inter: huh? You took the train up from Toronto to Fort William? K.S. ......... Aftert hat we coming to Fort William You took the train up ... Yes. We going through. And I don't know what (where) we going. We going. Train take us. We got piece of paper. Everybody got piece of paper, address and everything right here ... your address, your name and what (where) you stopped . . . . Because we don't know ·-nothing to speak. We don't know nothing ... ! guess we passed Port Arthur and someone say pretty soon we coming to Fort William. No man coming who's working on the train and say, we coming to Fort William. I think maybe we go 'nother hundred or thousand miles. How (did) I know. And I was think I · got something to eat. I no got much because I no got no money. I no buy nothing. And I no got. Everybody got some parcel in the new year. Some peoP.le give to people parcel. Something. Some candy, something. Some people give to some. Nobody give to me nothing. I no get nothing. I no got money. Got nothing. Some lady got something. I just think - one man, he travelled from Russia. And he's give me some, I remember, he's give me cheese, and I like cheese. Some people no see cheese in the old country . �That's all. You know. Got that system. And I live little bit in the big city. I know. I eat and I liked cheese very much. And he's given me cheese and something. And man coming, that who's working on the train and say to me, and take my hands and say "Come in, that's Fort William." And I coming to Fort William. I coming. He's take me to the station. He coming and say, "sit down here, and o.k., I sit down. And after woman coming and looked in my office and say, "come in". Take my suitcase and take me to that ... to that place. I coming to MacMillan Street, 328, - I coming early in the morning. It's early in the morning. I coming here and some girl going to Murillo, That woman say, if you going to Murillo, come on with me, We going too, I take you to the station. And asked that people, that people take me That people give me eat, Reep me, give me everything and that people say yes. And I no see that people xxx ... I see maybe that man. He's married to my cousin what I show you and say it's here, our son, and he's married to my cousin_and he's in another village and I don't know him. he's an older man that family, that people say yes .... And that's all. I stayed about two, three weeks. And after I asked that people, I see he's working. I say right away I liked to find some kind of job. I can't stay (while) somebody works. You know. It's extra some money. And I get job. First time I get job in Westfort. Ukrainian people. He's from Russia and she's from, Polish woman from Poland . . . . Both talking Ukrainian and some .. and I find, somebody find it ... that going for $20.00 for month. Inter-What kind of job? K.D. In a house. Inter-What, cooking? K.D. Working in a house.Just working in a house with that woman. And I working three weeks. And that was when we got with us Peter, that nice young boy, in Toronto. Because I coming to his father, and he's already here. And he's coming and say to me, if you want, we got better job for you. Not better job. Just little more money. Cloer. You closer to us. Because less work and more pay ... It's right by the bridge on Simpson Street. It's closer here. And he say that, if you want $25.00 ... his house ... uh, wife sick in Toronto hospital, Toronto, she sick in the head. And he's got three children, one just 9 months and three boys bigger -one going to school, and one ' just little one. I say $5.00 more. That's o.k. It's o.k. I quit. Andthat woman say to me, Renia don't go. You know. It's $5.00 nothing. Look at you take everything for your, you know, just taking our house in your hands. And we working, the two of us. We got two children and we got four women and her husband. And four roomers. And two of us. And she just not too, - I think at that time she pregnant. And she want somebody. And she like me right away.She like me. And she say, "why you go because you be sorry." You see. Too hard. And you know it's $5.00. $5.00 more. She think oh that's nothing. Lots of dollar in Canada. Yah, she say, $5.00, it's nothing. Lots of dollar in Canada. And you know, we here, two of us, and if you go(ing) (there), you need to do everything. I say, it's still $5.00. Inter: This man wanted you to move in.to his house. K.D. And I'm going working for that man. He's pay me ,$25.00. I working three months, and in three months, I ~ that. Because every time I coming home and I say, I don't know what that man mean, and he everything think, "god damn, son of a bitch". �-:r And I no understand those words, what that mean. -& coming home I say, home, because, what else? I coming home, I say, that, that woman say to me, listen, leave that that everything. And I say, he says something, he want business. What's that mean, business? And he want business, and she saying, his wife sold before, wood liquor. Maybe he wants you to make the same thing. Wood liquor, or maybe, like, something else. Leave that and that's all. I just left one day, and another day, woman came from Port Arthur. Big car. Nice woman. Talking Ukrainian. Born here. Canadian woman. And say, I hear you know how to cook. I say yes, I know how (to) cook. Becaus~ I know cooking. Cooking. Lots of cooking, I know. Cooking, old country. Really good. No just something. And she say, I give you $35.00, if you going to my restaurant and cooking, with my husband. And I help, and we got girl and everything. Mostly you working with my husband. He show you everything. And you sleep with us and everything. I'm say, "pretty good". You know. $35.00. And I going to that. And this woman, what I coming to, this people, that people expecting - that woman, expecting baby. I say .. ? •. She say she's going to hospital. That time not everybody going to hospital. She saying she going. I say, if something happen, I coming home and stayed here and helping because I no paying to that people nothing, and I just think it's something for me, to do something for that people too. And one morning, that one coming, early in the morning, and say, you coming home or not, because, He say, are you coming, and I say yes. I going. And I working in that, and after, I coming home, and stayed home a few weeks, and aftershe's coming help, eh, going back to work, I going cook again, not same. I going to another. And meet Didi. And married. Right away. That's why is Linda. And Karen too. (Refers to her granddaughters)(Means they should get married too~ Inter:(Karen) Not me. K.D. Not me. That's right. And we married. And Didi going to bush. A few weeks. So I think he's going to bush. In the bush, no camp. No nothing. He's going with xkxHH few people to build camp• and everything else and xkiHgx saying, "I write you and you coming and working, like cookee''. You know those people not called 'waiters' (but) 'cookees', you know. Inter: Where did you live? K.D. With Didi? ~When you first got married? We lived in the same house. And after(wards), that woman started something. I don't know. Started (to) make trouble. She saying something. She saying something. It's not right anyway. ?o today, anyway. I don't know nothing about that. And she saying I took to her husband. ~About old country. That wife. She lived in the old country. (She was) my cousin. You believe me now. I no talk. Because I say I coming here. It's not my business. And she talk. She give me her· new coat if I going to work. She give me everything. How (did) I mix with something crazy like that? It's not my business. My cousin,~~~ husband ~in the old country and he's married here. He's got one baby, another coming. I would be crazy if I do that. And ~he started that. I moved from that house. I no do nothing. I don't know nothing. I just ... and she say, yes. She hear me talking. I say, no, it's not right to (until) today. I would like to see her today. You know, because I just thinking that I owe to these people something. I go lived. (there) And they be good to me and everything el~!e \N And, we married, and going to bush. And working to bush. ~ months. In March time, we working to winter (through the winter). In March time, we coming home, and take (bought) that restaurant. And stayed in that restaurant ten years. In one room. Five people. Five of us. We stayed in a little room. (Beds) That one big one. One small one. Little table. And something else and something else. And I got dress right on the wall (hung) and coat, and something like that, because nothing else. And coming that depression. That depression coming. We take restaurant in '28, - in '29. Because I coming '28 and married '28 and in '29 in spring time, 3rd of March, we take restaurant. �We started to working ready restaurant in the 3rd of March. And we can't make one copper, - we can't make money nothing. Because meal coming to 20¢ and you can't pay rent because you no got no money and Didi going to Murphy and say we can't pay rent and we want sell that. And Mr. Murphy say, "don't do that -wµat (why) you going? Who asked you for rent?'' Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D . You rented the restaurant? Yes. Yes. And you lived in back of it. Yes. We got kitchen and little room. 1YRu know. Kitchen here room here, big one, and livi hg\ room on the other side of the kitchen. And we lived in that. And we got kitchen. We got everything you know. And, because we lived so poor. Because in one room. After all, foutr people, three kids and I slept in one bed. Not too fun. And we stayed until '27 like that. '37. And '37 we 1IIBlllli: built house on Alexander Street, and we moved in war time. And we moved. Still we stayed in the restaurant to '39. In '39, first of April, we sell that restaurant. And we no got no money because we build house. And maybe we make little money from fifty. '35 come a little better because that depression coming. That Bennett Government. And so poor people. So poor everybody. And after that, this little passed, and we made a little money and we bought that lot and built that house and moved to that house. That house not finished. And we just moved. Finished the house. Everything. Just inside not (finished). We moved there. And we no .. ? .. no money and Didi no working. And what we do? And Didi got some job on highway. He working on the highway, come summer. He started working on the highway on Nipigon (highway). And after he's working twelve year in the bush. And after war coming. People started asking, who's going to Canada Car working (to work)? And plane because Canada Car made planes for the war. And somebody want going. Married man, go to school, he got $12.00 for week paying for that and single man $9.00 for week. Yes. People here in Port Arthur started. That people who started that elevators. People built lots and lots of elevators. I don't know why. Some boat elevator. For some time. You know. Not for axkex every time. And lots of people coming to Fort William. And I put, in that store what we got that store in the front, I put four beds ~ I put two people in one bed. Two people. Four. Eight people. Or ten people. Upstairs, five people. Something I put in the house for .. t f i~l eople besides us. Trapped in that store. . . ? . . dining Inter: That was because people were moving here to work. K.D. People coming here to work and people needed some place to live. And I take 10 people to eat in my house. 10 people. And pay me $30.00 room and board. 10 people. I make $300.00 for month. You know. A family from that will eat. I washed for that people, ironed, and made meals. Three meals. If I not make meal, it's because everybody go to work and supper, good supper. and lunch. Everybody got pail, lunch, and I give that everything. And that time, and Didi started school. He's going to vocational\ And for ~three months, coming three, for six weeks, I forget how come that. That school be started and finished. And he's finished that school. And people, somebody saying, government saying, no, still no job in Canada Car. Somebody want to leave that and going to work, some other places for a little more money, �It's O.K. If somebody wants to stay longer, we'll be paying (refers to the school, I believe) and after if some job coming 1 we give you a job. And Didi stayed longer. Didi no going no place. Inter: He stayed at school. K.D. Inter: $12.00. It's helping, you know. He's make $48.00 for four weeks. And I make $300.00. I maybe spend $200.00 and we eat and everything else and still I make $100.00, clear money .. You know . . . And four people not eat. 10 people eat, you know. And I got for Finn people at that time. I work. Were you running the store? K.D. No. I got chickens. I got garden. I do that everything. Everything. And I believe at that time I buy a machine. (I believe she refers to a washing machine at this point.) And still we no got no - no just toilet, in the house. No bathtubs. No nothing. And people coming. Everybody washed face : here. I breakfast make here for 10 people. Breakfast. And people washed face right here, in the kitchen because nothing else. And that's eat he~e. And use pail. And going to work. And after, people move, I finished everything. Didi going to school. And I stayed with kids. And get kids. And it's coming '40, '41, something like that, you know, before that, peoplehworking in the bush. Working on the highway. And, after that, we started working in the Canada Car, and we got, make little money, and we know, war coming today, tomorrow started to army, we no got nothing. And we build that house, and thinking, we build that house,you know, and that corner store and everything. We just built for store. We just thinking right away, we built house. We make a little store. Because what we doing. Didi older, and he's not working no place. Because we stayed in that restaurant ten years. And after this and that. And there's nothing else. We just thinking ... ? .... And uh, after that, this coming later. I say, it's o.k. We got little money. We start a store. And I started that store. Didi still working. I started that store. Still I today not talking very good. I today no understand very good . . . ? .. First time, I make little. I make little money. Not much. They tell me. Did you bring a cheque? I no cash that cheque. I got my own money. Because I got few people in the room. And I got that store. I make that what we eat and what we need for every day. I got my own for that everything. Because I know one time Didi coming to work and foreman coming to him and ask him, hey, Mr. Dubinski, what you do with cheque? Your cheque. Six months already your cheqqe not coming back. And he's coming home and say, "go and cash that cheque". Because we got trouble and that coming and ask why he no cash it. And that's all. After that, DIDI, after a while, Didi changed everything. And Didi so good, you know, he's got even that piece of paper. He's so good on the job. You ~see that. And war stopped. And have to change from .... bomb to buses. In Canada Car. You know. And Didi started working on the buses. He's working on the buees year or maybe more, or something. I don't know. And that's all. And we no got so sweet. We got so sour everything. Because we working so hard. Now look my hands just look like hands, and my hands just like nothing. And my hands, everything look o.k. And something, yesterday, I was sewing. I can't sew. I sewing. I push here under machine. I need this one to push little bit. Pull little bit material and I can't hit that one. (Demonstrates on sewing machine).! just like catching, catching, catching and that machine, something happen. I can't do. I say, "oh, oh". And that's my life like that coming. And after we bought this, and after Wally (son) going to school, Sonny finished, and Lydia want going for teacher to North Bay because we no got in thaqtime here. She want going to North Bay. I say no. You can't. Because we no got no money. Wally going and you can't. And Wariy going by himself help because he's working, for that and everything. And we say no, you can't. Wally's making little and too, going to school, going to work. �Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Was that because, he was a man and- she was a woman, or it's just because he came first in the family? What? The reason Wally went instead of Lydia. No. No. Because. No. Because Wally liked to going and Lydia, after that, Lydia wanted to go. And we no got no money. So it's just because she came after him. Yah. Yes. And after that she's going to work and she' make a little money. And started K~xkbg talking and saying, it's coming little different, everything and she's going away. And after she's going to work, to working, and she no spend mo~8y and she say she's going to, I'm a little scared. I just thinking that she no passed and she spend money, and spend time. I just thinking about that. And not coming after all. Not coming too bad. Not coming too bad because she's finished and coming and now working ready 20years (at the age of 20), After20 years, then she married ... In fact, on August 30. She's got married on August 30 .. Tape I Side II Inter: During the depression, did you, did the different ethnic groups mix with eath other much? Or did the Ukrainian people stick together, the Italians stick together? K.D. Same like now. I don't know. Yes, People stick. It's not because (of the) depression. Inter: Well I mean at that time permod. \~\'<:> ,·,I.\\\.\. ~\~\~ \I\ ' "-\ K.D. And you -know why. Because people can hardly mix if we can't talk one to another one. You know, when I working at that restaurant. To one year, I just, one year in Canada, and I working in the dining room. Boss. I'm boss. Even if somebody help me. You know I'm boss and I no understand nothing. I can't talk. I can't even write order from the man who's know how order and something like that. Because every day something else. Didi make it (for) me. He's write everything what we got today. And lots of time I no understand what's that mean.I'm saying it's O.K. if Russian, Ukrainian, Polish coming. I understand him. And if somebody else come, and want something, lots of time I no understand. And it's hard for me. And I worked in the dining room in the front. Didi working in the kitchen. I working in the front. Lots of time I come to kitchen. I say, "where's my order?"' I give you this one first, and after I give you this second, and third one. I got this one. I give you that first one, third one, and he give me that one, you know, that one. Because he no going He say because you ho going to bring me eat from the other room. You know, you got little ice box, you know. Nobody got in that time freezer, fridge or something like that. I don't know. What people got, I don't know nothing. And we got lots of time something like that. (Like the situation she described.) Even now. Talking with Mrs. who washing. She speak all different languages. Because lots of time she's coming. ~he's got nothing to\-{do. Coming to~~r Elace. And½~ be sick, she help~~ She bring soup, and asking, what you want. Second, what you want to eat. He saying something and she no understand. And she tell me "I don't know what he wants". And I going to him. I understQ-d. "Oh, I don't know what to do. I going to my husband. " I say, go and ask him, because I don't know what you want. ae Inter: Didi understood English, then. That happened to a lot of immigrant women, when they came over. Their husbands would learn how to speak English because of their job and their kids would learn becasue of school and usually it was only the women. �K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: ~.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.B. Knter: That's true. And one time. And no talking. And don't know nothing. That is speak both sides and across the road, Ukrainian~~0 tri'd here,.we~~ Italian, or somebody else, you know. Here, Italian, here Italian, here Italian, - I going to Italian church, I going all over. Ineed Italian because I'm Italian. I talk Italian. I no going. I no working. Corning with husband, or corning to husband. Husband going first, and after he's make a little money and bring wife and kids or sornethiJng. And woman, and woman don't know nothing. Don't know nothilng. That must have been really lonely. Yah, it's really hard. It's really sornethitng. I live in that hard (times) everything. I'm really passed that everything. You know. First time, I think I, man say, "pork, steak and eggs". He's want to eat pork, steak and eggs.It's my best meal. I just saying now. I just figure. It's .. ?: .meal, what you eat. In that time, poor people, You know how people (were) hungry. People eat. You give six pieces of bread. Eat that and asking more. You see what I mean. And he say, "steak ,-pork, steak and eggs". Two eggs and piece of steak lik~ this one. And he's got really something to eat. You know. And I know we going for that, 'pork, steak and eggs'. Two eggs, you know, and that steak. And three of us going to ask him what he wanted. Because Miss? asking first, .... ? ..... How many people could afford to eat in restaurants? What you mean? How many people? Well I would think that during the depression, most people couldn' afford (it). They would rather stay home. People can't eat home because he's not ... Can't eat home. Gouvernrnent helping city. Helping to poor people who got nothing to eat. You know how much people got for one week's ... no government ... it's city, -ehat we calling relief or ... We calling in that time relief. You know how much people got for week? $1.75 What for everything? Or just ... For one week for you to use it. What you doing. So it was cheaper to eat in a restaurant? No it was not cheaper. Got piece of paper exactly like I show you. Here. This paper. Piece of paper and say $1.75 and if you get that, few papers from city, you paying that to house, to store or something because it's city .. It's like Chapples, something. And that man he's got one meal paid, and 'nether meal he's got credit. And he eat just two meal. No more coffee. No more coffee. And he's eat home. Who's want (to cook his meal)? At that time he went home, you couldn't afford woman to make work. He's no got no home. He live in a room. Who's got it for him to make for $1.75 for him meal and need a little fat and salt and everything, else, you know. He would give you the ticket. UH huh. And it's like paying for it. s K.D. Yes. Just bring it Monday that piece of paper. He's going to city hall to get that. To city hall. To police station or something. And he get that piece of paper. And you punch it. You got cards. And still I got cards. And you punch it for him meal. 25¢ you got two 25¢, two 30¢. ~@jj ~. And you punching him ticket. i (\ y "IA" t,·c.ke..+-, t �Anyway. He's coming another time (to) eat, and he's got 25¢ saved and still we got lots of people to today. That people. Lots of people. Ready die. Old people. And we lost that people. We sell restaurant. We lost that people. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D.: Inter: K.D. You gave a lot of people free meals? You know if you give him one meal. He's coming before 12:00, - then people ready coming for dinner, you know. And you give that meal for that people. And he eat one meal. And he's got ready 25¢. Maybe you just take that one day 20¢. Because he got meal. 20¢, 25¢, 30¢. Some days we make chicken, chicken, you know. And I just take chicken, maybe, maybe sometime I just say, I believe it's 35¢, you know. Poor people no take chicken. Just hamburger, sausages, stew, something like that for 20¢ . . . . ? ... He got soup ... I no got (She's searching through her cupboards for a bowl.) two times bigger than this one. Because it's(not) same dishes. That's small one. And lots of time some men asking, "oh, soup so good, please you give me 'nother bowl." Your profit ready gone. You make just one copper. And what you do? And he eat. We give three pieces of bread rye and three pieces of bread, white one. He eat first time - after I find out that - he eat first time that rye, then say, "oh, I like rye bread". "You got more rye bread?" He saying, you know. Like now people count that everythilng._ Not that time. And you bring him three more rye bread, three more rye bread and you coming back. No bread. No white. No rye. He eat all because he's hungry. You know. And people eat and he's not. He got no good meal. Maybe he's coming after for supper, and after supper, I pring a cup of coffee and you believe me, ...... ? ................. 10¢ and he say, "please give me another because .. another cup of coffee". It's 10¢. That .. 3, 4 buns cost 4¢ and two cups of coffee and your profit, everything going for 10¢. What did you make? Nothing. Nothing. Did you .. ? We work for nothing. Ten years for nothing. Your family didn't have to go on relief though? No. You always had enough to eat? . ................... ? ........................... . After Christmas, New Year and that time was so hard because so (few) people working and who's not working, that people coming just with that 35¢ relief and that rest on credit. What you do? You can't speak and yo~~st say, I going try someplace to work~ Maybe I going to work. ' ' . going to Port Arthur. I go too (reminisces) Who's that in Port Arthur? And he's coming home and say Hurry up. Push my ~~,~\ and everything else because I got job. How that job? How that coming? Wash. Hurry. Hurry up because I going to work tonight. How far you going? He's telling me on highway, you know how far your father("s) came (is) - He's going to that highway. $50.00 a month. Cook. $50.00 a month. He leave me not much wood under house. You know. Not much wood. Not much money. Three kids. And Lydia just born. Leave for few months. Two months. Month , and a half. I don't know. And he's going. With Joseph, my dog. And he's put in the kitchen some kind of curtains, drapes or something. I put up blanket and just make a fire in the kitchen and not in the dining room. Because in the dining room we got different. And my friend. Most ladies saying my friend because he's in my place and he bring his family lots of times. And we ask him for (sand)? and he say, no, no ...... and this and that ... and .......... . and need to split the wood and got three kids, Sammy, not three, and Lydia just two. Sammy exactly like that month. Today, give to that Susie, third one. You see what I mean? And he's going to that back yard and split that wood and bring me full kitchen . .... ? ... (he hauled)? that wood. He's not rich too because it's nobody rich. And few days, it's coming few days more and wood would be gone. What I do? And coming another my friend to my place and I talk to him and he's coming and say he's no got no Always have. �one cent.iH He coming from the farm. He just thinking maybe he's get from us money. And I say I no got no money. I can't give you. I got everything else in the house. I got milk. Milkman bring it and bread I got. I got meat. I no hungry. Family. No money. And he say I going to order wood for you in the wood yard. We got wood yard not too far from us, you know. I say I no got no money. I can't pay. And that people- nobody trust you because everybody want money . . . . ? ... for quarter, what he do? Or $4.00 or something then what he do? And he say, you, you need that. You need because you be in prison here with your kids. And he's going ... no and I say, we got one friend that Didi goes, friend to Didi, like to me, And he say, go to my (brother)? and ask him for $5.00. Maybe he borrow. Because he's working. He's working in the brewery. He S working solid, like every time. And I just think. It's o.k. tte going to liMe (friend) and I know he's coming home to dinner. And that man say, "I stay with the kids and you go to Mike", and I see if Mike would borrow me $5.00. And after that I going, and order the wood, because you know at that time telephone was something people, even wood yard, not wood yard got telephone. And I going and his wife said, come on, sit down. She's English woman. I say I want see Mike, you know. And Mike coming home. For dinner. And I say, Mike, I coming .... ? .... I coming to (see) if you borrow me $5.00. And he no borrow me. 1 Inter: K.D. Nothing? I just can't forget that. And he going to 'nether room and he bring me his tooth and he say I going, last few days, I going to dentist and look at this. He pull my tooth. He pull me that one. He's find one he's no got no money. He's working and we know he's got money. He's no got thousands. Got few hundred maybe, maybe in bank, because he's working. He's working everytime. And I coming to that place, just thinking, I going to very close friend. There's no closer friend. Not like that. That who split that wood and that who stayed in my house that night. That's three friends we have. Because we got nobody. And I just coming and thinking, "what I do now?" Still I need wood. And I going to -I going home. I just passed my door and I going to store. I going to store and to butcher shop. ~_ We got mostly butcher shop. And I coming. I say, "oh boy", Canadian born. Polish. I coming to him and say, "Mike, for me $5.00, and he say O.K. Just like this. O.K. And he gave me from the register this $5.00 He give me $5.00. I coming home. And I coming home and that man he going to get me wood, 2, 3 blocks, maybe even more. He going to order that wood and right away bring it. Bring it right away. I just thinking. He's help me. Oh, because he's ordered - that man who cuts that wood - because it's coming 4 foot, 8 feet long. Something like that. I forget. And he's going to catch those people who cut wood and I know that people who cut it ....... ? ....... How I catch (cut) it? I got three kids small in the house. And that everything, ordered, ordered that wood. That wood coming. And that man coming too. -two men. Mike again. Mike and Jack coming and cut that wood. Just finished that wood. Not coming in the house to us. That's not coming. Just finish the wood and leave it and that, and I see Didi coming .. ? .. Three weeks. He working for three weeks. And you know why? He's working - somebody -company called - I forget, no - and that company got long, long time people working for that company and that who's working for that company, that cook, he's working long and he's going to CP, and he's got lots of money and he's drinking it. Now coming back to work. �And Didi come to office and people saying to camp we need cook. Didi coming to office and people say, heh, we need cook. And sent Didi there. After that man, he drink (drank) all his money. He want back his job. He's coming to company and say I want back my job. O.K. Go. And he coming to camp and that boss in the camp say I"m sorry because we got you. I no say nothing about. (I've got no say in the matter). And anyway old cook company send me I take him because it's company (that) laid (him) off. And Didi made $35.00 at that time. And Didi coming. I so happy. I just. And he say, it's o.k. He signed debts, to Jack. And I tell him about that wood, about that Mike, about that Pete, about everything, and he say it's o.k. Take that checque and go to Mike to butcher shop and give him $5.00. He cash -this cheque. All right. I going across the road to Mr. ? He cashed the cheque. I going to .... ? .... Mike and give him $5.00. Mike don't know even what corning and everythingand that man who coming lots of time to our house, especially Mike .... ? .... coming night time to talk to us .... ? .... Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Did you have time for any kind of social activities? When you first came? No. No. What did you do? For entertainment .. did you ... ? Nothing. Inter: K.D. Nothing? No going no place. Inter: No I don't mean going out, but did friends come over? K.D. Inter: K.D. Heh, who's got friends? Mrs. ? (Tuarson) started coming from over there. Didi corning from the bush. Because Didi know Mr. ? ........... ? ........................ . We .~.just bought restaurant and he just married in that time before we coming. From camp. We just married. And we corning. And that people married. I believe this year we got restaurant. And he's corning with new wife - young woman - really nice one, little one. That's all we got friends. We no got no friends. Well how about ...8oing to ... were there Were they built then? halls 7 Yah. We wasn't home much to going. After our kids started growing and we started some. Oh yes. We going. We going. To Ukrainian. We going Sunday for concert. One Sunday, I going. Maybe second, third concert, Didi going. And after our kids growing and kids going to started playing. Started going to school and started going dancing. Oh after that, we going ... ? .. kids going .. O.K. That's family. If you corning and I coming late. Working too late.Kids going to play or something, you know. Because lots of dancing and they play mandolin and then I coming later. I work in the bushes and I sit down and I'm so tired. Because we got some time lots of people. Lots of people. And 'nether time because it's season. In that time we got that restaurant. Season coming. People coming from bush. People corning from highway. Who's working on the highway. We got business in that time and people going to work. Good weather. �People go to work. We no got nothing. We got just let people who do 75¢ for week and they just going to broke with that people. That's all. And if I going and sit down in the front, to that ... ? ... , or play or go to where they play baseball because I sit close to that on the bench, or on the chair because no room. That time people come all around. People sit one to 'nether one. And all are under ball. Under hall. Just people stay by this one in that hall. Not now. Nobody now. Nobody now no. How concert corning nice and everything. And that time. that's all going. Sometime playing BINGO, play BINGO something 5¢. I going BINGO and some times younger and older corning and say if you give something for BINGO. You know what we give. Give pie. Give pie. Eat. Nice pie. Lemon pie. This one O.K. Give pie and I give something like that, you know. TAPE II BLUE SIDE K.D. Smith. Inter: K.D. Tim Buck. Tell me about Tirn Buck. Yes few times is corning here. We going. I no speak ... I don't understand much. Inter: K.D. Tim Buck would come up to speak? Lots of people go to hear him? Yes lots of people. And Smith too. Inter: I never heard of him. I like to go. The family. K.D. Don't say that. (Laughter) You going to picnic. Was there picnic and Port Arthur Bush Woman Lake. And 'nether side you got really nice. Women make something to eat, something like that, some dinner, something and we going to that and kids growing little bigger. Kids like it. Buy something. We buy something. And lots of times some people corning and 'specially whose people corning to that picnic, I even see now. That people got money. Because husband working. I know one working Port Arthur Shipyards. I know one working in elevator and woman bring for picnic, for kids, sandwiches. I just say, ah. You know. You going to picnic. People sell something. Some weiners, hot dogs and some pyrogies, something like that. You know, I just feel how people make that? Kids want something. "I want a hot dog: I want a hot dog:" Shut up: Eat that what I brought. Inter: Were there times where you just thought that you'd never make it? Did you have time to think about it? K.D. Why? Inter: Were times that you were so poor that you just couldn't face another day? K.D. No. Just corning .. I don't know how to say that. It's different everything. Too explain that. You know. It's .. I don't know how to say that. You know a few .. Now this is .. I don't know how that even to ... to say that. How people so .. people poor. People really .. You see, even now that people, even now. Now we got .. we live on that government pension.Lots of people got some little money. People not. Nobody got money because in that time people working for little money. That money gone. Because if he working for that ten dollars, that ten dollars today nothing. Even if he's got. If he's no got thousand, thousand, he's no got no money. You know. And that time we cannot make money. Nobody made money. And even now these crazy people, old people still crazy. Because still people, people got $250.00 just like that and people still looking for loaf of bread, going on sale for 20¢ because it's ready stale, it's ready smell, it!s ready green over, all over in that bread. And people do that. I say how you crazy. And why? Because we corning here and we got �bad everything. People know that and people can't forget that. That time you know. And sometime I thinking it's crazy and 'nether time I think we used to that. We used to that. We used to that but we something ,-little crumb falling, we pick that and eat that, because it's something. That's not right now. You know. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. But you still do it. Because we got now not much. It's anyway not nobody hungry. People thinking how we lucky in Canada. Sure lots of people poor, lots of people(pause). You, 'specially you, you need car you need something more like you got . . . . If you really, really smart you be no hungry, because if you really smart, if you no got nothing else you going to city and city give it to you and that time not. That time we got in Fort William man called Blake. He is boss to that all kind relief. And everybody know whose that Blake. I don't know. I no see him. I just know he's big man, And he's like this one and big man. I hear that and I know that. That's Englishman. And we got after that, Ukrainian people, we got Chihowie, Mr. Chihowie, and Mr. Chihowie he's~oing to that hall what I going. He's going to 'nether hall, to Prosvita Hall. And people going to Prosvita, Ukrainian people going to one hall and the other hall. Was the halls were, sort of different politics? Yes. And he's corning to your honse,Ukranian. You can speak. Nobody going to you and he's going investigation. To you house. You know. And he's going to investigation. And if he's find that you no got nothing in your house. You need relief because you got kids and husband not working and you got in your house you got brother or some 15, 16 years old, people tell you throw him away. Because we no give him. He going to work. Must he's get work. Father not working and neighbour not working. And nobody working and he's corning like that. And Mr. Chihowie going under basement, under floor, because at that time people no got no basement. We got now basement, cement basement. That time just on the post (was the) house. And he's going under basement and he see if you got potatoes and maybe beef and meat or something else, from your garden. And he saying, that's one woman tell me about that, Mr. Chihowie, come into my house (came), Ukrainian woman from across the street, I saw her at Midnight Mass. And he's going to under my house and find potatoes and beets and he say, oh you no hungry. You got potatoes and you got beets in the basement, under house. You see what I mean. How that .. And that people today even thinking about that and still is terrible that And still got that money. That people got hundred dollars to spend. That people got hundred dollars keeping hundred dollars. I don't need keeping maybe dollar now.I just thinking 'nether corning tomorrow, after tomorrow. I don't need hundred dollar. Right or not? Do you think the depression made people angry or just made them afraid? It's something, you know. Like I saying, I got depression two times in life. One, the first time, in the old country. Was depression because I"m too small. (because= when) You can't do nothing. Just you know. Before we growing. �Wegot really depression. That was depressing because was depression for us. And after I corning here. I no find it so bad. I no find it. Just one hing. And we got everything what we need. We got shoes. We got dress. Igot coat. And I got everything what I need like everybody else. You know. If I working in a house, working in this house or if I going uptown, I change that because I got another dress. I know one woman. She's still here and she still nice woman, and ... I know she's got that time one little girl, and I don't know that. That's .. ? .. , her neighbour and she know better, and she told me of husband going uptown, and that people got one sweater in the house. One sweater. When he's got that sweater, she no going outside because she no got nothing else. And if she's got sweater, he stay at home. And Mr. (Warson?) say, O.K. come on with me, in a bushand he say no. I no going to bush. Because I lost (will lose) my relief. Because I think he's lazy or something. And I don't know how working in a bush and I don't know how make that everything. And Larson? say yes and I help you everything. And you make it because Mr. Warson/? working every time, every time he's going to the bush. Work is work and he's working and he's got every time little money. Not much. Just that what I save. Pet (five) dollars, family income. And he's say no he's no going. And you know what happen after all? Mrs Warson? tell that. She's saying we sitting in Minnesota Park, that woman, another woman and Mrs. Warson, . And one man corning, hello, hello, women, what you doing? And he's going to store and bring ice cream everybody for that three women. He's working. I Know that man too. And Mrs. Warson, everytirne she's got money. Because she's no got first few years, kids, and he's working and she's got every time few, few dollars, You know. Not suffer. And she's saying, oh we so happy, nice, we sit in the park and enjoy and nice and warm. And he's bring pop and ice cream. And after that she's saying, O.K. we going home. And he's going. With this wanan, talking, man, just ..... that's all. And she's saying, 'nother day, he's corning, same man and he's got two baskets in the hand. One apples, one prunes or something. Peaches or something. And she looking. Oh he's going to Ann. And after that she saying, oh Ann got already dress. And after that she's got coat. And she say, Mrs. Warson, say once, I going to Zeller's store, In Zeller's store, sell something. Sell material. 10¢ a yard and I buy ten yards and give to that Ann. Ann, make for kids dress and make for that window curtains. Because she's no got even curtains 1 in the house. And after that, she's saying because we talking all that, that woman and that man, and she's saying I no going. I say I no blame that woman what she doing something else. What you do if you hungry! What else? And lots of woman I believe some woman, for 'nother dress, because husband working and woman thinking I got two dresses, from husband and boyfriend. And like I saying about that Ann it's nothing home. If she's no got no dress or she's no got no KKBHKX coat or she's no got nothing and that man, what I saying (that I mentioned), he's working ready in a ... ? .... He's got little money. And he's want woman. That's O.K. He give it to her. Because I talking and Mrs. Warson say that's first time I see how that corning. I no blame her. I no blame her. Because no got nothing. And now I believe she's got the pension and he's die, husband die and she, she's still nice. She's still not too ... she look nice. Not too old. I don't know how she's look. She look really nice. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: Did you come to Canada with high hopes? Yes. And I guess what you found doesn't really ... You didn't find what you were looking for. Or did you? I no speak. ARe you sorry you came? �. make mistake. First time I '!'P1) sppak. I married too soon. I make mistake. Because I got ..... like one man what I know from old country, .~ .. he's find some day I'm here. He write to me. I'm ready married. And I x&iixk:tm believed that I'd be married to him, because he's calling me, he write to me, and calling to me, and I coming to ... if I need money, to come. If I write to him, he send me. And I believed it. And he younger. You know. That's fi~t mistake. And second mistake, I just thinking, I no stay in Canada. That's wmrse mistake. I no stay in Canada because I going to United States. I not coming to Canada. I coming to United States. Because I got lots of people in United States. I got my brother in United States. I just thinking I going to United States. Inter: K.D. How did you end up here? h ~t'CJ And after. I just thinking I coming e\Hae. And I find some better life 'cause I no got so good life in the old country. And I find it in United States, better life. And I not place here. And I know work I know. I know how to do lots of things in old country. I thinking if I not married, I know I be cook for somebody, I know cooking from old country, I be saying I no say that to nobody because I ho want to say that. It's not right talking. You no do that. I just thinking I know how to do for somebody, for some, even rich people, and people pay me good, and I would stay O.K. and something like that. And first time that I coming here, In Fort William, I no like Fort William, because it's too small, I no like Fort William. I hate Fort William. I say, 'Stay here? Here nothing. You make good money. You can't make here good life." And I O.K. I at that time O.K. because I thinking right because it's so small. Twelve thousand, 12,000 people we got that time or 7 or something, you know. If I started xkixki:xg~xxxH&xsxep reading, or after that I know it's twelve thousand people. I say you can't make no ... nothing ... no factory, no nothing. What you do? You know. You need something. Stay just in the house. Or waiter. Or not waiter in the home, just peeling potatoes for Chinaman in the basement? I just see that right away. I just ... first day coming, - I don't know how - I coming from station to MacMillan street I just think. We just going some place just to wait, and after that I hear a song, "I going to the city." I say Oh ho, ho. (Laughter) No. I tell you that. And 'nether third day that boy, my cousin, he's taking me to town, we going to town. He say, come on, we going to town. We going, we going, I believe, to ... ? ... store. I don't know. We going from MacMillan Street, we going to the May Street, we going to Port Arthur. After we c.oming back, Susan Street, and he say, you right in the middle (of the) city. I look at the map and say-, oh. I no say to nobody because, what you say? I just say, oh I hope something coming else. Bigger street like (tha~) that. Because you can't ... you can't do nothing here. You know if you see now not, happy~ know nothing. Sure some people no thinking that now. I :tb6~~ in the city and I know what city means. I know what city mea~ ~fcause lots of girls coming from village to city. That girl~~now nothing. I lived in the city. I lived in other places. I lived all over. I lived (in) lots of places. And I know. And after Didi started talking to me and say something, I say no. Because Didi not believe in church. Didi not believe in marriage. He just thinking, O.K. we like now going and we just take licence, and we leave it like that. And I say no. I don't care for church. I don't care it's anyway working, going through, something coming, I want this make it that, in right way. You know. And after we going to church and take that church marriage. J~u �~ We got that church marriage and didn't make no living, no nothing. First we got that man who's coming and send me for that wood and that man to whom I gming to borrow $5.00 and he's show me he's cheap. And his wife. After to that little apartment. Just in a house. And that people what you see stayed in the house. And after that woman got little baby and I, for that little girl, how was that , calling, godmother. Yah godmother. And anyway, after I say to Didi, every time, we going some place, we no stay here. We no stay if we married. I say going some place, going some place. We going some 'nether place, make a little money. We can't make here money. And he going and buy that restaurant and coming home, what we stayed in the room, and say, I buy (bought) a restaurant. I say, I no want restaurant. I working one month in restaurant, Right close to that restaurant. And I see how that ... you can't make money. Because it's poor restaurant. Poor everythi-ng. You can't make money. Oh we try it. We try it. And we tried it. To spring time, - we take it in March, I j~t saying first, - in springtime, and in springtime, coming here a man and he give us, I don't know. I don't know r4iillwwhat we _paying ( paid) (little more even) for that restaurant, you know, and I say no and people coming. So people coming to our restaurant to eat because we know how cook. We know both how cooking good. You know. And people coming really good. You know. I say to Didi, no we'll stay a little longer. And we stayed a little longer and coming depression, -what we do that time? Nothing. Just nothing. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Ksenia Dubinsky Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission to make this interview public has been given by Ksenia's granddaughter, Karen Dubinsky. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs. Ksenia Dubinsky in Fort William, Ontario. The interview was performed by Karen Dubinsky as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of three sides of two cassette tapes, available as three MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. During the interview, Mrs. Dubinsky discusses immigrating from the Ukraine to Fort William. She speaks on working in a restaurant during the depression and building a life in a new country during a time of economic turmoil. There are descriptions of how the different groups of immigrants in Fort William helped each other establish themselves. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Fort William Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/4552c6e5ca2f2a00dac26bf93323aca6.mp3 a1fdbff586041cc6c536102e6d5ca9d3 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/4a9137932a5e50b924250e4b2eba1b74.mp3 330c241cfc414cebf87adae2c4ec6c2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Lillian Wolter Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs. Lillian Wolter. The interview was performed as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. During the interview, Mrs. Wolter discusses working as a school teacher in Nipigon. She taught grades one through eight, was a shop-keeper for a time, and also played the organ and piano for churches and events. She details her experience trying to get a divorce from her husband. In order to do this she had to prove adultery, and she almost lost her job since she had moved in with another man before she was divorced. She also discusses community events in Nipigon and how the school would always host events for all ages. The recording consists of two sides of one cassette tape, available as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource No rights information Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Nipigon Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/8cadf7e791ed91c7c469478069965d8c.mp3 a8d89177b7c29ec37c408aacb5b3eb24 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/b824e18344d47ae6a395fabe0a35f625.pdf 25723f3037ec678a7552fa1a4f10192c PDF Text Text The interview of Mrs. & Mrs. W. Hartley Q: Uhm uhm. Mro . H: ... was a bachelor, but most of them had wives. Well, women, anyway. Some could ... well, Lars Olsen was married before he ever left Norway. And if he hadn't been married, he probably wouldn't have homesteaded here. 'Course he wouldn't have raised a family, but, I mean ... Q: They didn't have any children when they came here? Mr. H: They needed, they had to have the female to give them roots. And to have to build anything at all, or settle anywhere at all, they had to have roots. So it all, so in fact it all hinged on women in the final analysis. Q: Did they all want a farm? Mr. H: Q: Did they all want a farm? Mr. H: Q: Pardon? The women? And the men, too. Mr. H: No, no. But I mean, I'm talking in generalities. It fits these cases, but I mean, in broad generalities these ... ah, there was men who went out in the bush and started something, but to be of any permanence, it had to beo .. Q: Yeah. Mr. H: Q: .... social history of the world. Did the ah, did Olson work in a lumber camp or something? �-2Mr. H: Q: The one that originally built house? Mr. H: Q: Which Olson? No. He was .. . Sixty-eight ..... . Mr. H: ... He came from Norway. h he had been apprenticed in Norway as a turner, that's a wood turner. Q: He was married there, but And a carpenter. Is that how he built these hardwood floors, ans stuff? Mr. H: Well, the original structure of the house, the log part of it was done by these Finns, who are experts with logs and broadaxes. it And incidentally, cost a dollar a log to put this house up in those dayso Q: That's pretty expensive. Mr. H: Q: Ayh? I think that might be quite expensive. There are alot of logs. Mr. H: That was alot of money for those days, but no, there's not all that many logs. Q: They're quite .... I guess the wood was thicker. Mr. H: Ah, the wood always come from right around here. It's all Tamarac. It's resistant to rot, and came from all around here. But then, he would have done them--he did the most of the carpentry. Q: Okay, I'm just going to see if this is playing back . ... Do you mind repeating that? Mrs. H: Q: Yeah. Repeating what I said? �-3Mrs. H: Q: Well, Clara was born in ..... . Clara Olsen. Mrs. H: Yeah. Her name was Clara Christianson, and she married Lars in eighteen ninety-nine, and they came to Thunder Bay. She came with two young children, and ..... Q: When did they come to Mrs. H: Canada? Do you know? He came ah, I think it's all in there, in the book, around nineteen o-one (1901), and I think she came out in nineteen o-four (1904), and she brought two children with her. And they lived in Fort William on North Mark Street for ten years. And then he thought that the old PD railway was going to go through here .... Mr. H: Mrs. H: Mr. H: Through there. No, I thought it was down this way. The road was going to come, the piece of road that we got, the road, instead of the road where Belanger's are, this was going to be the road. Mrs. H: Mr. H: Yeah. Right through. Pearson-Pardee road. And PD was going to go along the high ground there. Mrs. H: Well, anyway, Mr. H: Mrs. H: ... they changed the route, and it went through Hymers. And so, for five years, she never left this place. Q: Except to do midwifery, and that kind of thing. �-4- Mrs. H: Oh yeah. Well then people would come to her, her daughter is Mrs. Colson, Mrs. Curtis Colson. Q: Oh, that's right, yeah. Mrs. H: And Gertie Docking is another daughter. She belongs to the south Neebing. And she , lives 7 ~ not too far from the But Gertie was Alpine. born in that corner, in there. But anyway, Clara went out, helped clear--this was all forest, and she would go out and pile things up and clear things up, and leave the children. She had some-- she must have been a marvelous mother. They speak so well of her, because she thought of ways of amusing them. that they had. Walter's found little soft balls You couldn't buy balls, so they had these made out of the old heels of socks. Or she'd tell them about the time when they were to come and call her. She'd be out working, and I guess he was in town a lot of the time. left here. She was And one day, they walked all the way down to around where Shutie's are now. I don't know whether you know that or not. Q: No. Mrs. H: Well you go down 608 ... Mr. H: (Slate?) River. Mrs. H: ... down the Oliver Lake road. The corner of the Oliver Lake road and you can go straight through there, to buy a cow. They were gone two days. They walked all the way there, and all the way �-5back; the two of them, bringing this cow. Q: The children and mother or husband .... Mrs. H: Q: The mother and the father. Oh, husband, yeah. Mrs. H: And who looked after the children, I don't know. Maybe one of the older childreno But she had her share of heartbreaks, but another thing that ... Q: How many children did she raise? Mrs. H: It's all here.(flipped through book) Mr. H; Well, little girls in those days, was six or seven or eight, started lookin' after the house, doin' housework. Mrs. H: ______ But ah ... and she would bring them porridge to bed. Now I didn't hear this until just recently that to get to, some of them slept here, and Alf, the boy, whose store you were at, slept upstairs and she had to go up a ladder. But she'd take his porridge. stove out there. She made it on a And that heated the house all night, and then she made their porridge, and brought them all porridge in bed, before they got up. And they always wanted their porridge warm, so they all sat up and ate it. Q: Breakfast in bed! Mrs. H: But imagine a woman with all that she had to do, and yet she was so wonderful with her family, and they all speak so highly of her. And she was awfully good to all her neighbours, I think. �-6Mr. H: Q: She was a doctor woman, so ... I wonder .... She was what? Mr. H: Down in (Osaks?) they called them doctor women. Midwife, and general sort of .... That book Foxfire, if you've ever read that, it--well no, yeah, Foxfire. In some parts of the States especially, the old English expression is doctor woman. Well it's a midwife and ... In those days, the doctor would come out from Fort William with a horse and buggy out here, twenty-five, thirty miles. days work for him, at least. Half a So they depended-- it had to be very serious before they went to the doctor or went to the hospital, so they depended on the local talent. Q: Naturally. Well, she was city woman, from a big city in Norway, so how did she get these skills? Mrs. H: Well, I think it was just sort of, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. her family. ~ ..... in Ingrid was eighteen when she died. She died of the flu and pneumonia, at the end of the war. Q: With that epidemic, yeah. Mrs. H: I guess they didn't--well, once again, they couldn't get out. here, .. ~nd by the time they did get a doctor o. Mro H: She'd have died in town, anyway. Mrso H; Yeah. And this Mary, one of the~ died of diptheria, Another child, she---the mother had typhoid, and �-7she lost her baby when, well, the baby was premature. And I think it lived two months or so. But it wasn't very well. So there was--out of all these, I think there were five left. Q: What, Mary, Alf,Borfield, Mrs. H: Q: Oh. Mrs. H: Q: Now this Barfield is Mrs. Colson. And the youngest was, well, the baby boy died. Why did they move to Fort William eventually, because Mr. Olson working there? Mr. H: Q: No, no. Mr. Olson died here. What year was that? Mro H: Her daughter Gertie, that lives on 61, was married to a chap named Docking, and they took over the farm. But he was away all during the war. But then he came back, they came back here, and sold-1956, wasn't it, they sold this place? Mrs. H; Yes. Mr. H: And they moved up to the Mountain road. took the old lady with them. And they The old lady died in the house, at least she died on the Mountain road, when they were living on the Mountain road. Mrs. H: But this daughter that was born here, this Gertie, is well worth talking to, because she's had a lot of ... Q: Gertie Docking, yeah. Mrs. H; ... Gertie Docking, and she lives on highway 61, just past the prison farm. Now Murray worked at �-8: :But he joined up, and the prison farm, you see. went overseas, and she and her parents ran the farm. Now she was just a young woman; you'll see pictures of her in here. Until he came home. __husband working at the country club. She's a very capable person. Q: She's sixty now? Mrs. H: Q: Yeah, she'd be sixty, but you'd never know it. And her sister's older than her, Borged? Mrs. H: Borged, yeah. here. Now this is a picture of a Christmas And this very room, when we bought this house, it was practically in the ground. Q: You didn't buy it in 1957, when they moved out, then? Mrs. H: Q: And they had it for how long? Mrs. H; Q: No, a German family moved in here. From '56 to '72. Oh yea, so you just bought it recently. Mrso H: And they really, almost, well, you'd say they abandoned it, wouldn't you? Mr. H: Mrs. H: Well, sure they abandoned it. They were going to tear it down, they didn't think it was worth fixing. Mr. H: Maybe not consciously abandon it. probably draw up some The didn't - - - -they were going to abandon the house, but it was in a state of abandonment and would never have come back and fixed it up. Never. �-9Mrs. H: Q: This is the story of the family.o. I'd like to read it. Mrs. H: Well, you can come back any time you like, or if you want to read it now. This is written by Mrs. Colson for the history book. And every story that is in this book is about families that ... Q: Oh. Are there any pictures? Mrs. H: These are the Deckings. daughter. Q: Yeah. She was the There she is. Oh, what a pretty bathing suit! Mrs. H: And this is sort of a family picture of all the families. Oh, this is the Sedwich's, but they couldn't get very much about them. But this is what this place looked like when we bought it. Q: Where did you come from? Mrs. H: You and your husband? I lived in Thunder Bay. raised there. I was born there and He came from Ottawa, but he was born in England. He grew up in Ottawa, or near Ottawa. Q: Would you say they were a fairly typical family, the Olson's, of this area? Mrs. H: Q: Yes, I would. Because, I know a lot of Scandinavians settled out here. Mrs. H: Yeah. Mrs. H: ....... I don't mean anything derogatory about them, but they're self-sufficient. They've had to be. There only meat would be what they got through hunting, so that ..... �-10- Q: What about cows and that? Mrs. H: Q: Oh yeah, they had cows. Did some of them have sheep? Mrs. H: I don't think sheep would be very practical out here. Q: I know the Kamstra's have sheep. Mrs. H: Maybe they have, but there are too many bears around. Q: Oh. Mrs. H: Even with cows they can be a danger. There's still wolves and bears. Q: What about chickens Mrs. H: ----------- Most of them still have their own chickens, but they have to provide enough to keep them going through the winter. approve of it. their survival. Q: For them, it was necessary for And ... And the women hunted too? Mrs. H: Q: So, hunting--oh, I don't I couldn't tell you whether they did or not. I know my grandmother Garrett used to carry a rifle and could shoot one. Mrs. H: Well, there have been women that have been left to raise families. It seems I heard of someone just heard about recently lef~ woman on a farm without her family and she was left with a bunch of young children, and, what else can you do? Mrs. H: ... logs, and white pine, red pine. And all through that section down where they lived, they weren't �-11- too far from the border, and so you had all these lumbar jacks, and so on. Q: So, where-abouts was the prostitution house, exactly? It says 7 -I don't know where Concession Eight and (Neebing) is. Mrs. H: Q: Well, this is Crooks. So that's closer to Fort William? Mrs. H: No, no. That's down towards the border. The last township along the American border. Q: Oh, okay. Mrs. H: So they were very close to the, not too far from the American border. Well, then you have, the Pidgeon River was used for timber, too, you see. They had all those falls .... Q: So this is woman entrepeneurs catne up from the States? Mrs. H: Q: Cecile McGuire Mrs. H: Q: Yes. McGuire, yeah. Or maybe Sicily, I guess it would be. Mrs. H: So, you see, she had a dance hall, so it was just like, well, the Yukon. They had quite a house. Now whose living there now, - I don't know, but they had all kinds of old clocks, and all kinds of antigues and things. Sunday School. Q: What a change! Mrs. H: Yes. Then it was used as a �-12Q: Is it still standing ------------- , I guess it must be. Mrs. H: Q: Yeah. But their not living there anymore .... The Held's . Mrs.H: .... , they've gone down to ah, they're living in Virginia. place now. So I don't know whose living in that We used to visit the naturalist always, made a point of calling there, because they fed birds and it was very nice, very nice area. But I think that would make a good, well, =-I would be interested . ;..... . Q: If you want to write something on that for us, we'd be glad to credit you for it. You see, what we are, are more editors than authors. We're just trying to, you know, kind of coalate the material. Mrs. H: I don't know where I'd go looking for material. People would be giving me a queer look. Q: What about the Held's? telling, I don't Mrs. H: Maybe they know more than they're know. Well, of course, as I say, they're away down in Virginia, right now. These people are very close. She ah, Mrs. Manaseau's American too. The present Mrs. Manasteau . ... hard time of it really. Q: Why do you suppose they were the pioneers? Mrs. H; Well, I can see what happens today ......... . (end of tape) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Margaret and Walter Hartley Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs Margaret and Mr Walter Hartley in Neebing on December 6, 1978. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of one side of a cassette tape, available here as an MP3 file. (Click on the speaker logo to play the file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. Discussions centre about Clara Christiansen who married Lars Olson in 1899 and immigrated from Norway. Arriving two years after her husband, with two young children, the Olsons lived in Fort William before moving to Neebing, then built the house the Hartley’s live in. Referencing a book, the Hartleys discuss Clara raising a family, and being a "doctor woman" (midwife). One of her daughters died of the flu epidemic, one from diphtheria, and five children survived. In 1956 the family sold the place and moved to Mountain Road. Gertie Docking, (nee Olsen), was one of the daughters who grew up on the farm. Looking at pictures, the house was owned by a German family, the Sedwich’s, from 1956-1972, and abandoned. The Hartley’s bought the house and discuss the history of the farm with cows and chickens; women on the farm raising their families; and living amidst the industry boom of lumber and mines. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-12-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/9d0e03c1b6a2becead656fbb5a5657aa.mp3 e50cd4d3bbbf71aa1e89d517371f2fc8 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/228f33ad35ca0e96ab89a3645765c26b.mp3 176c26d76985842bd6259dea59e428b2 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/250e2ceb33cd67407f2655792adcd896.pdf 387d2dcde4afa4919f4b5840770071d5 PDF Text Text HERSTORY PROJECT Mrs. Duggan interviewed by Helen Lovekin Q. Mrs. Duggan, can you tell me when you were born? A. Q. A. May 18, 1891. And you have been a lifelong Thunder Bay resident? No. I was from Renfrew County in Eastern Ontario near Ottawa. Q. A. and I lived there until I was 21. What made you come up to Thunder Bay? I came to live here in 1937, prior to that for 21 years I lived in Sc~eiber / and how I came to be in this part of the country_; I went to normal school in North Bay and under a grant that we got we were obliged to teach in the dtstricts instead of the counties. The districts started east of North Bay and so I went to normal in North Bay and I taught near Sudbury for four years and then I came to Schreiber to teach in 1916. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I was born there I was married in 1920 and I lived in Schreiber until 1937. So when you moved to Schreiber the war was on in Europe and Schreiber must have been very much a bush town. No, but it was strictly a railroad town. I recall there were six trains a day at that time. What was it like coming from Eastern Ontario into Schreiber? Well, naturally it was a complete change because in the area where I had lived in Eastern Ontario it was mostly farmland whereas Schreiber was strictly business connected with the railroad. It was an entirely different environment. Were the people there homesteaders there at that time? Not in Schreiber, anyone who lived in Schr.eiber, who had come from the east as the majority had, the men came there because of the railway. There was good work and the pay was good. Naturally they brought their wives and families with them. Q. Instead of getting land grants they lived within a town. A. Yes, the majority owned their own home, not on a _large area of land though, ------just on a lot and a garden. Q. When you came up in 1916 you had had previous experience teaching, how did you have to modify your lessons for the children up here? pletely different atmosphere they were living in. It would be a com- �e ... A. We had the Ontario Curriculum we had to follow and I can't say that it was a great deal different from what it was in other places. The only thing is that my early teaching days before I went to normal school, I was in rural schools where I had the full compliment of children, from grade one to grade eight. That was very difficult. After I went to normal school I always had senior classes and I taught grade seven usually and later grade eight. Q. Did you marry in Schreiber? A. No, I married in my home town in the east but I married a man from Schreiber. A railroad man. Q. The romance was all in Schreiber. What was it like for you to leave everything that you knew and branch off into Northern Ontario? A. Well, it was certainly vecy different in many ways - the customs were different. For one thing the people had more money to spend, there was more social life, although it was a small area. One thing that perhaps was a bit outstanding, the men were by far in the majority so of course the school teachers were rather popular at dances and so on. At least we always had a good time. Us- ually we went out a great deal throughout the week. Q. After you were married were you allowed to go on teaching? A. You didn't have to stop, but I did stop, I don't know why I did. At least I thought I stopped - I resigned - and when we were on our return to Schreiber after our honeymoon, we met a railroad man quite a distance down the line, and he said to me that they were waiting for me to get back there. I asked why and he told me that they wanted me to take the principal 's job because the principal had been sick for quite some time. There was a clergyman in charge of the classroom and he didn't like it and I don't think he was much of a compromise. When I went back , it was the pupil's that I had had in former years and of course they Imew what to expect. There was no trouble with discipline. Q. Was that quite unu~al to have a woma:m as a princip.al? A. Well , it was there. from the eve of time. d,ied. The principal who had been there must have been there He was there for a long time and was there until he At times after he died I was once again replacing the principal after I was married. After the original resident principal died, two principals at least took sick at different times so I replaced them. Q. But you were never given the position officially? A. No, but I didn't want it because I had young children after a few years and I wouldn't have been able to handle it. Q. What sort of social activities were present? �A. Card playing was very popular, in fact I was really bored with having to play cards. If you didn't you were a kind of an outlaw. Afternoon teas were also very popular, in fact many of the ladies had their visiting cards that was usual in those days and then dances occured at least every couple of weeks. Then in the summer there was a lake very close and many people had cottages there, and the lake was a great source of enjoyment there. Q. When you came to Schreiber it was 1916, there were still two more years left in World War I. A. What kind of effect did that war have on a small town? I think I should tell you that in 1918, the year the war ended, that was one of the years that the flu was very prevalent. We had an excellent doctor in Schreiber and there was only one person who died of the flu, but there were very few nurses and schools were closed for a while and we were asked to go on a volunteer basis to different homes especially if the mother was sick and the young children had to be attended to. So we went in fear and trembling and everybody that was strong and husky felt they should do their duty. doctor certainly couldn't have managed without the help. The I recall that the weather was dull and school was closed for about six weeks. In that time we went to various places - the teachers and women without children. I think there were one or two nurses and there were some women who had some nursing experience and they rounded us up and got us going on the project. Q. A. So it was a rather important contribut-ion. Somebody had to do it and after all, we were as able to do it a~~~ody else and we didn't have anyone depending on us as did the people with children. Q. In the First World War was there a lot of activity in the church groups, women's auxiliary etc. towards the war effort? A. Yes, knitting and that type of thing. Making of bandages. I don't recall that I had very much to do with that but then it was perhaps because thankfully _there were others with ,,.more experience along that line. We were quite active ~ practically everything that was put on in a social~· line. There wasn't too much going on socially because it wasn't wise for too many people to be in groups. I do recall one boy caine home from overseas and the doctor had issued an order on account of the flu thatfthere were to be no group meetings. This boy's mother had planned a big party for her son's return from overseas and she was ve-ry indigna.n,t to think that that was interfered. with. The doctor was quite strict about the rule and he was right of course. Q. In your teaching career, what salary did you start off with? �A. You'd be surprised - $JOO a year. Q. This of course would be less than the men would be making? A. I suppose, but there were very few men teachers in those days. No man in his right mind would take on teaching unless he was just going to earn some money and then go on to something else. Because if he planned on getting married how could anyone live on $JOO dollars a year? Q. How did you manage? A. The first year I paid $10 a month board and then I went to a different school in a farm area and I paid seven dollars a month fur three years. Later I got a raise of $325, It seems like an impossible way to live but you have to consider that it wasn't only the teachers who were poorly paid, it meant that nobody was making big wages and what you bought was not as expensive, anything like as expensive ... I remember buying blouses for .2.5¢ or ,50¢ and a young girl who was quite a dressmaker would go and stay at a house for maybe two or three days and do all the sewing for that season and she would probably be paid a dollar a day and room and board. It was all relative. Q. Did the climate affect you in any way? The long winters. A. I did find the winters in Schreiber exceedingly cold. On the way to school, quite often you had to face north and another thing, I had a cold classroom and often we would have to close in the morning because the heat didn't circulate as it should and besides I was on the cold side. This didn't hurt the feelings of the children any. Q. In your early years of marria·ge and having children, had you become quite climatized to Schreiber and Northern Ontario? A. Yes, I got accustomed to it and people's habits were a little different you know. In the east where I came from there were more relatives living in the same area whereas in a place like Schreiber it was mostly a young people's town with ha.r.dly any third or second generations. Naturally the older people preferred to live in the east where the climate was better. Q. You came to Thunder Bay in the '30 's you said. A. Yes, 1937 and that was the time of the Depression. Q. Could you tell me a little about that? A. Personally we never suffered very much from the Depression because of the fact that my husband had steady work, which very few people did have. Railroading is determined on seniority and my husband had enough that he always stood for work but quite frequently he would decide to take a day or a couple of days off and that gave somebody else a chance. The railroad peo:p1e are rather LI. �clanish and also very interested in, and sympathetic towards those who are Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. not able to get along. Did you resume your career? Periodically. I don't know how many times I went back between 1920 and when I moved here, but I was back several times. As I say I was back right after we came from our honeymoon for three months and then I was back several times and then we carne here in '37 and I think about two years later I was at the boarding school for a while, somebody suddenly became sick and I was there replacing. I did go back in '43 for a year down at the East End at a separate school - St. Joseph's. In 1945 my husband died and I went back steadily from then on until 1968. I went to the sanitarium to teach in 1945 - a tuberculosis sanitarium on the outskirts of town - and there were a great many children there, mostly Indian children. The odd white child but not too many. Then the adult Indians were just like children because many of them came from places where :they had no education and many of them I taught to write and to do arithmetic etc. I stayed at the sanitarium for seven and a half years and then I was out on Arthur St. for six months waiting for the build:¢ing of a new school on the Indian reservation. I went there in '53 and I stayed seven years. What was it that made you choose the mission schools in particular? For one thing, I wasn't as young as some of the other teachers, when I taught at the mission school I was a civil servant and the government generally pays better than the separate schools - and of course being a Catholic I couldn't teach in a public school. It was quite attractive to me because by that time my family were all away and I was able to live there due to living quarters. I must say that it paid me in the long run because ever since I left there I have been getting a pension. Aside from the monetary aspects of teaching at the mission, you were there for a good part of your career .. ?Was there something that attracted you to that type of work? Yes, I enjoyed it. I found the Indian children very easy to teach - some of them were more brainy than others - you ,find that every place you go. Some of them were more mischeivous than others too. On the whole, I had wonderful support from the parents - naturally because I was a government representative and nobody interfered with my discipline. I feel that I gave them something that perhaps nobody else was willing to give - nobody was interested.. The �majority of teachers, when they start in a city school they stay there, but I was free to change if I wanted so the - Mr. Mciver who died some years ago was the member of Parliament here and so he told me that this new school was being built with all the modern accomodations and that if I was interested., he would help me get it. got it. I suppo-se my record was fine or else I would.n 't have I was there for quite a few years and the one thing I found when I went there was that many of the Indian people had a defeatist attitude that because they were Indian they couldn't get anywhere. I drilled into the children that anybody of any nationality can get anywhere but it has to be through their own efforts. All you have to do is drive out to Chippewa and see the lovely homes and many of those homes are occupied by some of my former pupils. Q. So there is a great deal of satisfaction? A. Yes, I do feel satisfaction. The chief is a former pupil and so is his wife. They invite me to their different activites etc. I feel that I had a good relati:onship with them and of course it's like everything else, you get the kind of treatment you deserve. If you go out there with the snobby idea that you are so much better than somebody else, you won't get very far. I went there to teach the children and I did it as conscientiously as possible. Q. You sound like a person who has a lot of energy and goes into something with a very open mind. A lot of people who did come up from Southern Ontario into Northern Ontario had a snobby attitude and it could be manifested. more severly in teaching the mission schools. Insofar as women's activities went did you have anything to do with the women's organizati01s? A. You mean the Indian women's organizations? The Indian women were not really well organized. but what we did have were the Girl Guides. Guides - the women to come and start the group. I got the Girl We would have a tea every so often and the children learned how to set a table and I had taken a lot of my own things from my own home out there with me, so I had my tablecloths and my silver and the odd things. I showed them how to use them and serve and I think the children got a lot out of that. They got something out of it and they have shown over the years with - I've been invited to various activities and you certainly can tell that they know how to serve and act like anyone else. I don't take the full credit but I mean they do observe how other people do things and naturally they learn from others. Q. You did belong to the Catholic Women's League did you not? �A. Y.e s. Q. Could you tell me something about that? A. Naturally I had belonged to the Catholic Women's League in a smaller town too, when it was initiated.. Then when I caine here - I think the League started in 1921 in this area - we had a League in Schreiber and then when I came here, I'm sure I wasn't here a year when I was nominated as secretary, no,treasurer of the League. I was on the board for years, and I was on the diocesyn which means a larger area. circle. In the league there is the local group and then a wider I used to attend as a delegate the various conventions. At that time the head of our diocese was North Bay and now we have a Bishop here ~ but then we didn't have a Bishop and I was the delegate appointed to go to conventions but I don't think I waslappointed because I was smarter than anyone else, I went because I had a CPR pass. Q. What was the function of the Catholic Women's League? A. The slogan is "For God and Canada", so we tried to do anything we could to help the clergy. Many people teach catechism and I've done that quite a bit. In a small place like the rieservation, one of our projects was to raise some money by carpeting the ............. but that didn't have anything to do with the C,W.L. that was just one of our projects, that we did with the children. With the C. W.L. we had a hand in the Depression by packing clothes and we got a special rate on the railway and sent the clothing out west to the people who were desperately hard up. During the war, people made bandages and did quite a lot to help the soldiers, especially packing kits and parcels so that they got a treat from home every so ofteu. We had the names of all the boys who belonged to the congregation and everyone of them got a parcel. Those were some of the things done in war time and of course there has been a great deal done in giving burseries and awards to children who otherwise couldn't be able to go on to a higher education. Q. Does the C.W.L. set itself any goals that it wishes to achieve for soci.e ty? For instance, you must have had a lot to do with St. Joseph's Hospital. A. Yes, quite a number of the ladies who are members of the C.W.L. and are on the Auxiliary for St. Joseph's Hospital. and helped with teas etc. Naturally they made contributions Right now the C.W .L. are -very active in the abortion :problem - they are very opposed to that of course, it is against the teachings of the Church and so the C.W.L. are strong in opposition to abortion. In every group or in every tmm there are poor people and the poor are helped. We -, . �have rummage sales and people who rave a lot of children and haven't much money can come and get a whole box of clothes - the clothes might be worth $15 and they would pay a dollar. When I was· on the Indian reservation, the clothes that were left over from a couple of the churches were sent out to me and then we'd have a ten cent sale. We felt that having the people pay a little gave them a little more dignity, than to just say 'here, have this" . There again they would pro~ably get a box full of clothes for a quarter. Q. When you were teaching on the reservation and at the same time you were involved in the C.W.L. did you feel a lot of distance between yourself and the Indian women? A. It's a bit hard to get very close to some, fortunately I taught at the sanitarium previous from going to the Indian reservation and one woman from the reservation was a patient at the sanitarium and I got to know her quite well. She had gone to school in town and when I went to the reservation, I felt that there was somebody I knew and her husband was very, very good as far as any repairs or anything like that, I just had to send someone to bring him overrto look at the problem. pairing anything. I am completely useless when it comes to re- One particular item I always noticed about him, he never came to the school alone, he always brought one or two of his children with him. That was for my protection because there were neighbors around who didn't have the best thoughts and no way would he expose me to their criticism. I admired him so much for doing that, I didn't ask him to do that, I never told him that I noticed it, but I certainly had a great deal of admiration for him. He was a lot younger than I was and he and his wife used to come over in the evening to the school and he was very brilliant -in mathematics and I would get him to do rational problems on the blackboard, which I knew he enjoyed doing. Q. What was his wife like? Were you close at all? A. I was fairly close to the wife and she used to do my hair. nice person and ve-;cy socially inclined and friendly. entertainment at Christmas .... ~ ...... then put an imitation flame on it. She was a very We had a beautiful We covered the barrels with red and The people really enjoyed our Christmas pariies and another thing about the Parks Board, Mr. Art Widinol? especially, he was in charge of the Parks Board at the time and he used to bring the treats for everybody, They came from Squaw Bay, from that school and our own, we had two schools in the mission. �Q. How much co-operation was there between the women - you told me about Schreiber and about how the women managed to ward off the flu epidemic by the healthy ones taking care of the sick, you mentioned working with the C. W. L. and you mentioned you worked as a teacher/in the reservation. Would you have wished for more determined co-operation? A. No, I really was surprised by the amount of co-operation. Sometimes - Indian women won't push themselves - so sometimes you might have to suggest, but they were ver:y willing. They would have thier children dressed the way I want etc., so no, I can't say that I ever lacked help. Q. The C. W.L. was quite a unified group? A. Yes. We al.so had a group that would put on skits every so often. It took a lot less time to put on a skit than to put on a real play so often for our purposes we would use skits. al. but many laughs. We would have a skit with vecy little rehears- Certainly were given great encouragement and always asked to come back for more. Q. You found lots of avenues to explore. A. Yes, perhaps I should tell you about the boy when I was at St. Joseph's Boarding School, after I left the reservation. In 1960 I thought that well, I was getting on in years and I really tire, but the sisters had been asking me to go to St. Joseph's Boarding School on account of my long connection with the Indians. They knew I would understand the children. I went and stayed there eight years after I was supposed to retire, every year the Westfort Kiwanis in order to encourage children, and make them aware of the forest, they offered a prize for the best piece of art that showed how to prote·a t the forest. Children of all the schools were asked to co-operate so at the school they had never heard of that before, so I talked to my superior about it and she agreed. We did enter the competition and out of over 2,900 entrants, one was chosen aqthe best. The name of the chUd who did it and the school he attended was on the back and it was not visible to the judges so nobody knew whose work::.it was. The next day I had a call from a man who bel.tnged to the Kiwanis and he told me that one of my pupils won the prize. The boy had drawn a man sitting, and protecting the little animals and he did an excellent job and so they chose that. the Exi bition. The prize was a trip with an adult to Toronto and I was the adult. This boy came from a reservation way up by Armstrong and he was the eldest of a very large family and it just didn't seem the thing to ~~o. For some reason they decided that if he was going to get �very much out of the Exhibition, that I should go with him. They phoned and asked me if I would go and I said that if it was going to be for his welfare I '11 go. Mr. Badani was our member at the time. I wrote to him because I was working for the Federal Government, and I told him what the situation was and the conditions and he alerted somebody in Toronto and next to the Queen, we had the best service. We were at the Exhibtion, everything was handed to us, we· stayed at the King Edward Hotel, we had our pictures taken, and we were on T. V. there. We got plenty of publicity and it was an achievement which I am sure made the Indian children aware of their own potentialities. r,. did something for the whole district, to Imow that one of them could do that. Q. Do you think that women's roles in society have changed very much, and if so do you think that the changes were for the better or for the worse? A. They've certainly changed and of course women are better educated now than when I was growing up. On the other hand, if you judge by results, I think that the women of fifty years ago produced better children, more responsible children. Q. But surely that is not their only function - to produce children. A. No, I don't mean that but if you were to judge them that way I think that well, discipline has changed and that has an awful lot to do with the way the child turns out. I think many women of today are doing an excellent job soc- ially, I don't mean in society, I mean in trying to benefit the underdog. The underpriviledged etc. , I think the younger women are to be greatly admired for the way that they really are trying. Naturally you are going to find a certain number who are self-centered, there will always be that. I think on the wh.ole, women a.re very conscious of their obligation to their fellow men. Q. That is refreshing to hear. Quite often, we have received very negative com- ments as to how young women are today. Circumstances have changed. Criticism of working mothers for .e xample, young women can't afford to stay home if they a.re able to work. A. I think the majority of older people have a tendency to talk about the good old days. I've lived a good many yea.rs and the good old days weren't so good at all. Women naturally didn't get out and do things as today but you see, they didn't have the equipment in the home to make things any easier for them. It took them all day to do their work. I have no patience with women �who spend their afternoons in the beer parlor. But I think that is a minority. When I see my own daughters, they '11 drive their children here, and drive them there, so that they can take part in worthwhile activities and other women are doing the same thing. There are a great many women who are giving a great deaJ. of time to, volunteer work. That certainly is very commendable I think. I do find that it is generaJ.ly older women who sit back and won't do anything, of course you have lots of time to criticize then. Criticism should be con-- structive and if you can see that things should be different why not go and suggest that you will have time and give them help to do it? Q. If you were to become involved as a young woman in a project right now, in something in society right now, what would you like to do? A. As long as it wasn't work - I'm not fond of work. brains and I like to make people happy. I like to work with my rhere are a lot of serious things in this world and I think if you can do something to make people happy that's good. Some women have a pretty tough time, they work aJ.l day and perhaps work at home and often don't get any co-operation, I think that if I had any choice it would be entertainment - but it wouldn't cost anything to produce or attend. Q. Did you know that there was a play just formed recently and it was an aJ.1femaJ.e play and aJ.1-femaJ.e audience as well. 'rhat was just two weeks ago. It was a group of women who had just decided to do something, and I think they are doing it again in August. A. We just recently had the C.W.L. convention here and I was one of the characters and it was really just a show of hats but they introduced me as an 87 year old. I feel that I am young at heart - everybody has pains and aches whether you are young or not so what is the use of talking about them if somebody else has them too. I think that senior citizens today never had. it so good. It annoys me to hear them say that they don't get anything for this or that. There is plenty funded to senior citizens to live on if they are not spendthrifts and foolish with their money. As far as income for senior citizens is concerned, you have to realize whose pocket it's coming from - my children and grandchildren are paying for the comfort that I have here. children and grandchildren are doing the same thing. Everybody else's All you have to do is hear of conditions in other countries and think how fortunate we are. pension is $145 monthly The - they say that the basic salary should be about $300 but you can apply for increases and then of course the rent sidized buildings is geared on income. in these sub- After all, if you have reached retire- ID . �ment age and have never saved any money, you 're not going to start saving it after that either. You take the wages in the last twenty yea:rs or so, they've been good and surely people of 65 must have something ahead of them. My parents had to live without any old age pension and they had to save for their old age. If they are absolutely irresponsible with their money well than naturally the cheque isn't going to last long. Thank you for talking with us. \t. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Mary Erne Duggan Description An account of the resource An oral history interview done by Helen Lovekin with Mrs. Mary Erne (Maher) Duggan in Schreiber. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. The interview uses language that may no longer be considered appropriate, and discusses the schooling of Indigenous children. In this interview, Mary Erne Duggan reflects on her life and career. She was born in 1891 in Renfrew County, and moved to Schreiber in 1916 as a teacher. She married in 1920 and had children, continuing to teach occasionally after that. She moved from Schreiber to live in Thunder Bay from 1937-1968. In 1945, her husband died and she maintained her career in education. The interview focusses on Mrs. Duggan's teaching and the cultural changes she witnessed through her career. She taught in schools in North Bay, near Sudbury, in Schreiber, and in Thunder Bay at the Sanitorium, the Mission School (1953-1960), and St. Joseph's Residential School (1960-1968). In her interview, Mary Erne Duggan reflects on WWI, the flu epidemic of 1918, the Depression, and WWII, and her identities as a teacher and as a member of the Catholic Women's League. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Schreiber Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Interview is released with permission of Mary Clare Massicotte, granddaughter. https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/1690071e6b95bcd824a9769e450c4549.mp3 1247d40a046f7a13647619b30603b6cb https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/a8bfe6fa8bb733add91208fa7fe85f9d.mp3 e5dc5c3bb17141deb98c760a67343d23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Maryon Kantaroff Description An account of the resource An oral history record from artist and women's advocate, Maryon Kantaroff. The presentation is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The tape records a presentation by Maryon Kantaroff at the Northwestern Women's Conference, April 6th 1973. Maryon shares that women’s movements have the potential to change relationships with others and with oneself. Maryon talks about radical feminism in relation to selflessness, and the importance of speaking up for oneself as a woman. The presentation recants her personal experience in joining the Canadian Women’s Movement and consciousness for camaraderie. The talk is a critical look at the history of social oppression and the power patriarchies have to shape identity. Tracing significant historical events through her discussion of gender, sexuality, religion and culture, the talk by Maryon emphasizes the importance for women to work together for widespread cultural change. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-04-06