1 10 20 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/80015bcb0b1896dd779115222e8a99d7.mp3 7864cb6fd1e2eeb6f52d49e2cd73dfa6 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/5b809326085f5e608a1cfb1c28892ba6.mp3 c6df8efcda58db1010370169bb508415 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/5fb275888be553dc27019b0504bf328a.pdf 0d4ef5066ba8d7025f6681928ebe73ab PDF Text Text J HERSTORY PROJECT Mrs. Kamstra interviewed by Georgina Garrett Q. A. Q. A. I'd like to talk about the relationship between women out in the country were women close to each other, was there a lot of co-operation? They were all very independant ... Yes. You had to be close enough to feed a threshing gang. What do you mean, feed a threshing gang? The threshing gang would come in and the man with the machinery - there would be a man who had a threshing machine, and he made it pay by going around to farmers and threshing for them. The usual thing was the waiting for-the thresher to come around. When the threshing gang came with the thresher, which was as many neighbors as possible, so the farmer's wife has to cook a whole bunch of pies, because no farmer's wife would thin.k of having a threshing dinner without scads of pies. So the pies had to be made and the roast had to go in and you couldn't do it alone - that is when you had to be close to somebody. I used to be jealous of the men because they had a great deal going for them, they seemed to have a lot of fun, what with the dirty jokes going around, and the only person who had a hard part was the owner of the farm. He had to do the dirty work, he had to stay in the maw? that is where all the junk and charr'··goes and that is the jo·b for the family whose grain is being threshed. So th~y would go in with kerchiefs and red handkerchiefs and they would come out of it with bloodshot eyes, and it was very hot weather and that job was the hard part, but only when it was on your place. I saw that this was fun for the men and a sweat for the women, but then what I noticed about the old-timers was that they got such a big high - the women out of producing enough and with quality, then everybody would say, whether they meant it or not, what a wonderful dinner that was. The closeness that had happened in the early days, I used to wonder about it because they lived so far apart and they had to walk to visit, so that a visit meant a whole day, and they would spend a whole day with their neighbor. Then they would have it to talk about when they got home, but they weren't in each other's hair a whole lot, they would really put all their effort into going to that place for a whole day. When I came to the country, that was all over. Those \ �people were reminiscing about the good old days and what they had had and how close they were. But in reality I used to wonder how this was because it didn't happen very often that they got together. Q. Maybe it was more of the quality than the quantity. A. I think so. Q. In what year were you born? A. '20. Q. How long have you lived in South Gilles? A. I went there first in '38, I went to Scobo\!. which is in the S. Gill es area, I think the deep issues had to be dealt with on those days. three miles away from Gilles. That was my school, down there. I was there for two years. Q. Can you talk about how you became a teacher? A. Yes, I was born in England an9- I was a baby when we came to Canada. Did you say you were British? My parents came from Surrey in 1921 and my father's family had to come here in 1913, My grandfather was brought here to be the city roads supervisor and all his life he seemed to gripe a lot because when he got over here, assuming that this job was waiting for him, they had given the job to somebody else. Q. What was it like for your grandmother coming from England to Thunder Bay? A. She was another very determined little lady. She was five feet tall and my grandfather was six feet three inche~ she was so short that she had no lap. She had quite a strong temp-er and she was uneducated, she couldn't write and she had to sign her name with an 'X' I think. by his sister so he Imew how to write. My grandfather had been taught She just fought her way. When my mother came in 1921 we were afraid of Gran Adie. Q. Did your mother come over as a child? A. My mother married Gran Adie's oldest son. She came to Canada in '13, then there was the war and my father, her son, was in the war so afterwards he and his bride .... Q. So your mother was a warbride? A. No.not exactly. They had been married. in England and had my older sister, so there was a four year old and a one year old come to Canada. My grandmother had this fight to survive, so much so, that my mother could har:aJ.y survive. Have you seen the show "Upstairs, Dmmstairs", well my mother wasaa downstairs. She was a housemaid, she would be very angry if l did.n 't get her proper position. She was a parlour maid which was a little further up the rung. She had learned from the aristocracy some of the social graces and some of the fLr1er things. She had access to music and art and she wanted her children 7- �to have some of the finer things in life. earth you know, By God. My grandmother was right down to The thing to do was to make money, and making money was what my grandmother was about doing. Q. How did she go about that? A. She pushed my grandfather, and he never measured up. She was just a woman. He did the best he could. She came to Canada thinking she was going to be the wife of the city engineer and it didn't work out that way. My grandfather got the supervisor of the incinerator job down at the end of town where nobody who was a nice person was supposed to go. That was a whole part of my life, that I used to go down and visit my grandfather at the incinerator and found such lovely, warm people dmm there. My poor mother was afraid that if we went down to that end that we would be raped. It was really such an. education and right away I cuuld see the pulls as a little one. Q. Very class conscious. A. Our street in Westf ort - Brooks St. - there were Roman Catholic and Protestant fights. We were Anglicans and most of the people down that md were United Church and Methodists and Presbyterians and they were having their little thing. Besides that there were the Italian immigrants up the road that every- body caJ.led waps and we wea.-e not aJ.lowed to call waps. Then there were the Poles and the Ukrainians and there was a reaJ.ly strange thing that you couldn't figure out. We were not allowed to go out of our gate, other kids were al- lowed to play on the Francis St. playground and there was a mix-up of the races there, but from my mother's background, she had to keep us English, but my grandmother was going to stay English but she was going to fight her wa;y out there. She was rough, very class conscious, but she was go:ing to be up because she had been down in England. As I got older I discovered that this was an ingredient of the immigrants of all of the races, and the ones who came here were the fighters and that's why we had so many fights. They had to survive and the only way they knew how was to push the other down. My maternal grandmother was the same and I didn't know her but I heard and I've gotten to know some of my cousins in England and her daughters, half of her family said that she was a "proper bitch" but my mother adored her, so the other said that mother would favor a daughter - there was a lot of sibling rivalry going on. But that old girl brought all her dau&1ters - she had a family of te:n and eight survived, four girls and four ,lx>ys and she brought the daughters through the terror of the war._ by her strange strength and by J �her ability to do midwife things. People were afraid of her but she was also in charge when there were crisis situations. She was an amazing woman that none of the cousins or second cousins Imew. She wouldn't hesitate to leave the old man - she did the terrible thing of separating from the old man. Q. Was there very m'l;ich separation? How common was that in the c·ountry? A. Mrs. Turk saw for herself a role that was more than being a mother. Q. Was that because she had been a teacher? t. I think so. She had experienced being put up on a pedestal and she liked it. She had a way of talking, she didn't talk like the rest of toem, she talked with a bit of an accent, I don't know quite what it was. little American sinoe her mother was American. to have change take place in people. -- Could have been a There was a lady who was able She was able to do it with kindness and warmth and streffi.h and she was no underdog. She was quite beautiful. She kept her Anglicanism and when I first moved out into the country I was an Anglican and she used to come, she was a·bout 80 yrs. old, to our house. Our new little house, the bride in the community and we would have the priest come to our house for Communion and there was just this quality about her. +'\thought she was a lady because her behavior met with my ideals of what a woman should be. Her husband was a very amusing man, she used to do the right and proper thing and she didn't believe in booze. But old Bill Mitchell, who was the dearest, sweetest, funniest man - going through rough days but being able to see the funny side. He used to say that he unscrewed his wife's blueberries in order to get a little bit of fermented juice down. away with that - I don't know whether she knew it or not. He got From what I know of her, she probably knew it and let him get away with it. Q. How do you think they raised their daughter so that she had the gumption to leave her husband? A. I don't know. All I ever knew of Annie was that I felt sorry for her. In getting into the education thing.·:like me, you start to feel yourself being pulled away from the people that you love. Being put on some kind of a level that you '.re not prepared for and don't want. Because you have the name schoolteacher. Q. Can you talk about that level? The women teachers ..,I have talked to didn't talk about that, I know they were respected - but what kind of respeci;? A. It was resptct for a person who could lift themselves up to such a status as a teacher - they really had a high expectation of a teacher. �You couldn't live up to that because you had a certain area of expertise and it was very, very, narrow. You went into a culture that was foreign to you and you had to learn about the culture in order to funct ion. Sometimes you had to get in there and ask questions that were embarrassing. I asked too many why questions. I know that They became threatening to people - usually the wives or mothers of the families I taught. They would be people that you knew and immediately they would start play acting in some strange way that I couldn't understand. It would be a kind of "put the teacher down" game. "Put her in her place", I felt, but I couldn't understand what place. didn't understand their jokes, because it is a cultural thing. I I didn't understand why I had to be called Peaches, why couldn't I have been called Freida? You have to have a nickname here, so I tried to understand it but it didn't fit right with me. Then there were the husbands who flirted with me and who came on fast at the dances. I had to keep that to myself - I didn't understand it - I was only 18, and I was the teacher, this almighty teacher. I needed somewhere to go to talk about these funny things that were going on between the mothers of the children and the fathers. I could see that some of the fathers were doing mean things to their wives, and the wives didn't Imow. The wives were providing - they went out to the blueberry patch - although there is a side issue here since the wives got freed.om in the blueberry patch. That was also a status thing, how many better berries you can put on the table. The women had to provide the food, and I noticed that in one or two families that I boardedwwith, that the big thing for the father to do was to e;o out and hunt. in the fall to make sure there was enough meat and yet the wife had to stay home and do all the cutting of the wood to keep them warm, and harnass her kids to that. Q. You were a teacher in the time of male supremacy,- and yet most of the teachers were women, and were highly respected. A. It's not quite respect. It was respectiin the way that they were being looked at "respicio" - the latin word. at and they were being tested. And they were really being looked Tested against the former teacher. I had a Danish woman who used to come in and she had come to Canada with her husband and she was having this male-female fight. It was a fight - he used to chase her doim the road in the night and he had some kind of a drum ... it was really weird. Eventually I got to thinking that these people were crazy. She had been the former janitress and when I came, I was a new 5 �teacher and they also had a new janitor and so she was going to see what she wanted in the building because it had been hers before". She used to come around and peer through the windows and ask me questions about my program. I was scared of her and she was an example of the way the teachers were being tested. When the mothers would get together the teacher was alQ. A. way~ the topic of conversation. Do you think it was because the teacher was so important in their childrens life, and the mothers hoped that they would rise above their station, so the teacher was responsible? Yes, I'm sure, but the teacher wouldn't dare letoon ... for example, I remember one of the fathers giving me the third degree on Shakespeare. And to teach after Grade 10 and what I knew about Shakespeare was what in high school and it was Macbeth and Hamlet, and if he got me out I was sunk. But I didn't dare tell him because he was a member of I had I got of that the school Q. board. It doesn't sound like you enjoyed being a teacher that much - some of the A. other women say it was a great part of their lives. Maybe they say so but at that time, there were many of us who had great doubts and breakdowns. When we could get into town we had a Saturday where we would just talk shop all the time and we'd exchange seat work to keep the kids busy next week. Our real community on the education line had to be the teachers getting together on Saturday - had to keep that connection in order to develop our teaching skills. If you talk to me about the Christmas concerts-never have I reached that peak of power and creativity. That was mighty powerful stuff - you used your whole being and every scrap of paper and every crayon you could get a hold of and you had nothing, not even toilet paper to work with. You had to produce a Christmas concert and by God if you didn't you were fired, because the Christmas concert came right before the annual school board meeting, when you weren't there, and many teachers, if their concert didn't measure up were fired. Q. What things made the conditions of the concert so significant? A. It was the one thing that everybody went to and brought them all together with shared purpose. It took care of all the aches and pains of the year. There were tears and there was laughter and hugging, and bottles passed around. Santa Claus was usually drunk and you hadato have a few under your belt to play the part. I don't think I'm exaggerrating, everyone was there, so the �struggle for survival was forgotten, it was a ritual which mended the hurt feelings. If the teacher had a creative bent at all, then she collected a big ;high from the Christmas Concert, and a sense of power. I got the sense that this was what I was created for. , I can do this and do it well. The sad pa.rt was that like all things it got out of balance and some teachers thought that the focal point was the concert, started practising for it in September. The academic part of it was lost therefore, the inspectors dictated that the concert had to go. There doesn't seem to be a place where the community can get together now. Q. Why didn't many women have anything to do with the Women's Institute? A. That sounds as if not many did but a lot of women did and it did serve an educational meet, and a social meet. least once a month. Oh God how they needed that meet at The Women's Institute as you '11 notice is not a big organization, numbers-wise, ... Q. The number of wanen in . the countryside are shrinking. A. That's not so, maybe it is. powering. In my communitythe young women there now is over- I am so surrounded by young wives now, more than I've ever been. It's not trueethat the population of women are shrinking in my community. Q. Women, one in particular, attributed the decline of the Women's Institute' in her community with the introduction of automobiles. You are now able to drive into the city and have much more leisure time, so that rural values and comerad.erie were no longer necessary. A. There is truth in that. I suppose it is hard for any organization to be flexible enough to meet the changing needs. That's what happened in my estO imation - they d'idn 't have either the knowledge? or the understanding? who had any understanding of what was happening in the sixties? the Women's Institute understand it? input from the people. How could There was no roomiin their format for You did the 4-H program, and I also remember when I gqt into the Indian communities how badly those people asked. They wanted to Imow recipes, they wanted to Imow how to live in the present when they had to deal with food out of cans and different food. the very program that the Institute was offering. They were asking for The 4-H clubs were mar- vellous and they taught how to sew, and cook and also a lot of creative craft and they had experts in the field brought into the community so that you weren't getting old hat information - you were getting top notch infor- 7 �mation on budgeting_ and so on. The Department of Agriculture had that pro- gram, Indians were wanting it but the Department which is behind the Women's Institute - I talked to the top people in the Department personally - they couldn't do it, they couldn't change the program. That was an example of why the Institute failed. Q. It couldn't change the program to adapt to Indians? A. Yes, for inst.ance, these people couldn't write so they had to keep notes. Q. It sounds likeyyou were rather ostracized from the S. Gilles community because of your priveledged. position in your husbands' household compared to other farm women. Were you ever able to establish a feeling of closeness with neighboring farm women? A. I found that happened now, only now. Q. Did midwives ever help you? A. No, I had my children in a hospital. The only emotional experience I had with that was when I first came to the country in '38 and one of the little boys who I was teaching in Grade One, his mother had died in childbirth. Aunt Cassie had been there and the doctor from Hymers had been called but they couldn't with their expertise, save her. anything about midwifery. After that I didn't hear 6nly the very poor people took advantage of that. I remember a Hrs. Barret - she used to deliver some of her neighbor's babies. That was in the '40's. Q. How did the climate and envioronment of N.W.O. specifically affect your life? How was it different being a woman in N.W.O. as opposed to the Praries? A. Elsie Couch's father was the pioneer of H:¥Jllers. They came in and they got into the surveying and the men in those days seemed to get access to the outside world and the women got "bushed". This was the word that was used. Q. Hhat did ''bushed' mean? A. I don't really Imow, except that the women who used it to me said that "I'm getting bushed", and she hungered to be in the town where things were going on, to talk to people. It was used by other people in a sort of way the people took for meaning that someone was going crazy. eral women who went that way. I have known of sev- I'm thinking of several whose burdens were so great and there was no place to go. If they went to any tof these strong women, their message was that "you have to be strong", and they couldn't. So they just left the world of reality, and that is how I assessed beine; "bushed". Mr. Hy.mers was a beautiful, intelligent, wise man but his wife �was said to be crazy, you could.n 't communicate with Iher. She died at 60. Mrs. George Hy.mers. With the Mi tchells and with the Couchs, with the Hy.mers - these were people from affluent parts. The Couchs came from Absley Ontario and they had already raised their kids and they brought the last half of their family up here to start freshebecause of _ _ _ __ killing the old man Moses. The Hl{Illers were adventerors, and wanted to see it all. The next generation something happened, since they d.idn 't have access to education. In comes a green little school teacher and they a.re suprised at the lack of better education. One of that man's daughters told me a story of her uncle who had been caught, stuck down by a thunderbolt and she had the thunderbolt on the fireplace to prove it. Now that is just the next generation you see. Q/ A. Q. A. She didn't' know 1·rher8 China was, their world was there and that was all. It was an urban platter of e;oodies that they resented. Partly that, but there was something else. It had to do with the male-female thing because the teacher was a threat, she was someone who could, and felt it necessary, and the measure of her was how she could stand up to a man, and to the school board. The school board boys were caught in this attraction and making a man out of her too. How did you deal with that personally? I was very naive and the only thing I knew was that I was a woman and a woman gets married. It is very good that I have my teacher's certificate and I'm glad I had that training because at least I could give m~ kids something that the others didn't have. That whole thing was in my heart but then I saw how it separated - just with b~ing with me - the mothers in the country refused to realize that they were also teachers. I could.n 't do anything really worthwhile unless I took all the kids, so I got myself involved with the children. I had to go through about ten years of undoing and unlearning and to turn myself in some direction. I could function with the children because they were honest- there was no way I ought to have discussed anything with the parents - there leave you with the impression that I hated longed in the Women's Institute and that is she couldn't tolerate the Women's Institute now there was a woman who was strong in her while was no way I could. I probably all people who believed and benot so. But Vi for instance, - Vi Woodbeck, your aunt opinions about J:Ihat is worth- �She could.n 't stand all this bloody gossip - she couldn't take it - she hadn't the time for it. There was too much to be done, she had to raise all her kids and Orbie was so beautiful and sexy and women all just loved Orbie. just had it with the women. He Attractive young wives and women, he made them feel great - but he didn't know how to earn money. She had to feed the kids so she had to work and she didn't have time to spend at a bloody meeting. Q. A. Your grandmother didn't go to the Women's Institute. They were sort of solitary, they didn't open up much. Mrs. Garrett opened up to me. I found her far from solitary. She looked after my kids when I decided to go back to teaching, because they couldn't get teachers when my kids needed teaching. Q. A. This was in the fifties, '58. Well she was quite old then. Yes, I guess so. She came and looked after my kids and did the housework while I went and taught school. She was very free. There was a closeness among the women but there was also a very destructive grapevine. When things were okay - if I need your friendship right now, I'll accept your inadequacies and I will acPept you as a friend. But if a time comes that you might beat me out in a power struggle, then I'll use that information you gave me, against you. Mrs. Kamstra told me to stay out of the organization and if you go into it, be very careful of what you let out. I think that was a truism and it's a natural human thing. Q. Is there an interesting story or anecdote about your life or another woman's life you would care to relate? A. My favorite story - I'm 18 years old and Mrs. Nielson with the brown eyes and crazy look has been coming two or three times a week and harassing me. It is about quarter to nine and I'm at the school - I walked the mile to the school - some of the kids have to come three miles and some on bare feet. What they had for lunch was lard on stale bread. They also had lice in their hair and they had to have it c.u t off because they had so many scabs. coping with this as a Westf ort girl who had never been to the country. woman is coming and telling me I don't know how to run a school. she came in again and I was frightened. I'm This This day She came, up to me again and I broke down and I was so mad at myself for crying but I didn't break down when she was there. She had left and wen to get her mail where she told all the stories of what was going on in the school. I had 33 children and up to grade nine that year. Colleen Haywood nee Lark was in that school and her brother �Bill and Art, Art was 13 years old, and he had a crush on me. We were in love with each other I think, he was a terribly attractive boy and he made my life almost impossible for me because he teased me and he wouldn't do his work and he goaded me into disciplining him. He was the first one to come into school after Mrs. Nielson left - he had just walked two miles. He caught me crying and asked me what was the matter and I told him what Mrs. Neilson had said about our school. He asked me where she went and I told him that she propably went to get the mail. I then decided I had better get the work on the board and then I went to ring the bell and there were no kids. my kids with Art Lark in the lead paraded into Mrs. Nielson's yard. that I had really done it now - there's going to be war for sure. All I thought Then the kids came back and they were angels that day and when they came in Art told me that she wouldn't bother me again. And she didn't. Somehow I guess that gave me the strength - I've always relied on the kids. I became a community with the kids rather than with the parents. That is a moment in my life that stands out. Q. Do you remember Aunt Cassie at all? A. No, I just remember her horse. People had a lot of respect for her. Those two women - Vi Woodbeck and your grandmother - . the way they went about being themselves, they wore the pants in the family. father, I think he died soon after I crune. women. I am. I don't remember your grand- They were considered strong Pinky is the next generation and Elsie is quite a bit younger than They have been going all around, visiting those country people, all around the mail route, I don't know how many years. or longer. Maybe 15 .,or 20. years They had been at the pulse of the c.ommuni ty. That is were you pick up the news of who is dy.ing, who is pregnant and who is sleeping around, this kind of gossipy stuff and it's chewed over by the regular folks. You find out the values of the community right there, and those who were deviating from it. They seemed to be doing a very subservient job to people, they are waiting on their husbands a lot of them thought. I have heard over the last 3 or 4 years from someone of some of the unpaid, loving jobs that they have done because they wanted to. The lonely women who are out there get connected by that truck coming around, and the women who can't speak English or write it, depend on them. Pinky g oes out on that truck and she is all sort of rattly sometimes, and she doesn't know the value of her work at all. Even if you told her, she wouldn't believe you. . .... My salary was$690 per year. �• They kept it under $700 because of some bookwork. get a thousand dollars. It was always like that. Men doing the same would There was something so priceless and precious about men at that time because so many had been killed. Killed in the war, so that when I went to normal school there were only 8 boys and one of them is the head of education here, in town. I was a better school teacher, I know I was, I rated much higher, marks-wise. But there was no way I would aspire to be the Director of Education. Q. What were the war years like in South Gilles? A. It didn't touch us too much. of them did not go overseas. friends which affected me. Except the people whose boys went over. Most It was my high school chums and my brother's My husband had to stay on the farm, they made him stay there. It says here about the positive change in the women's role in the community - I think there is a very strong change. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Freda Kamstra Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission to make this interview public has been given by Freda's granddaughter. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs Freda Kamstra by Georgina Garrett. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play the file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. The interview uses language that is no longer used and may be offensive in nature. The interview begins with Freda speaking about companionship between country women. This is spoken about through the lens of cooking large meals to feed groups of men working the threshing machines. They go on to speak about Freda's and her families past including their immigration from England to Canada. Freda speaks about her paternal grandmother and how she was quite hotheaded and determined. Freda then speaks about early life in Thunder Bay and how the mixing pot of different religions, cultures and races led to a large amount of conflict. She speaks about Mrs. Turk and her mother, her mother being a woman she seemed to find a role model in who was a teacher and whose "behaviour met with my ideals of what a woman should be". She also touches on how she felt separated from her peers due to her families' status. Freda then goes on to speak about her experiences being a school teacher and how she was put on a pedestal of which she did not care for. She explains that women teachers at this time had a great deal of expectations put on them by society that could be very difficult to keep up with. She talks about how the pressure affected her mentally and that she was constantly in fear of being fired. Freda then speaks about some of the issues with the Women's Institute and touches and the lives of some of the Indigenous People's during that time. She expands on her thoughts on the Women's Insitute, speaking on how she used to think that women were born to get married and have children and she thus clashed with many of the opinions of other women. She also did not appreciate the gossip and the on/off nature of her relationships with many of the women. Freda then reminisces on one of the great moments of her teaching career where she found community with her students, particularly a student named Art. She also states that she liked the kids and relied on them much more than the parents. The recording ends with Freda touching on the wage gap between male and female teachers and how men were treated extra special during this time due to the war. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - South Gilles https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/91434b931ba2389c30926c1409a42a5d.mp3 cfddfc33726ed0a849f96837eb6cae16 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/8478f1f25a8406e24446ac2f9c18fd09.mp3 a8244c78a9f5d7c2f9a30dc686df5f4c https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/37ca34e4b1b4a4a69b6b53165f6286de.mp3 807987e817ac16f7a7512d1a0d78a793 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/2d775f760650c71f26ab1c33f2f7c5d6.pdf 4f9e48cef8f2180259a6bcbfd49827ba PDF Text Text I ) HERSTORY PROJECT Mrs. Maki intervied by Georgina Garrett Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. In what year were you born Mrs. Maki? I was born in 1911. How long did you live in South Gilles? I lived in S. Gilles for 59 years. Why did your family go to S. Gilles - how did they get there? My mother and dad came from Finland but my dad came about two years before. He worked in the States for two years then he came to Port Arthur and he sent for my mother. My mother came with three children, two boys and a girl. and the little girl died about two weeks after with the whooping cough. So, my father looked for a farm for the best territory for the family. They settled in South Gilles which was a farm with a 160 acres and a little shack.,,,., Then, he started clearing land, there was about two acres clear and they got a call on credit from somewhere so that is where they started. My father sometimes worked out ten hours a day and he'd get / up early in the summertimes, about four or five o'clock and he'd clear land and go for work about seven. He'd come home in the evening and he'd again clear land until it was dark. How many acres did he finally manage to clear? Well, they:·had four farms and they managed to clear about 150 acres total. Then my brothers grew up and the family grew too - there was eight of us children living because two had died - and when the boys grew up they had to help out with the farm work, the cows had to be milked and the herd of cattle grew, they had about ten or twelve milking cows, pigs and mixed farming. Would you say that the farming was pretty prosperous out there? No, not in the first years. My father had a team of oxen and he used to go to work for the other farmers, and he got about a dollar a day , enough to buy groceries. It was pretty hard at first. My mother worked on the farm when my dad worked out and she worked in the hay fields and she raised the family, made her own soap - everything from scratch. Picked wild berries, grew a garden and knitted all the stockings and sweaters for the children, she'd sew when the children were put to bed, she'd sew to twelve or one o'clock in the morning. She just bought the material because it was cheaper ------- \ �to buy, the clothes were more expensive, so she did all the work herself. I really can't see how she did it all, she did the work of three women. I think maybe it would take half a dozen nowadays. So the boys grew up and some of us got married, two of my brothers stayed on the farm - they were bachelors. So finally they had two barns and a big house and all the working equipment - haybailers if they went to bail hay for the farmers in the fall for about three months. This is the way my parents and we lived until we got married. Q. Do you think it was a very satisfying life for your mother or do you think it was filled with drudgery? A. A lot of drudgery and no time for play. Of course women were satisfied. in a way because most women rad to do the same thing. Maybe some were better off - maybe they didn't have to manage the barn, maybe their husbands did it. Q. When my dad worked out, the boys did most of the farming. Who looked after the children in the early years when your mother had to do the farmwork? A. The old:er children. When we got the farm my older brother was about eight I at the time and he was left with the younger children and when I was six or seven, I was left at home all day to look after the kids. \ I changed their diapers, I washed dishes - I had to stand on a little stool, and there was a mountain of dishes and I still hate washing dishes. On the farm, if you had a big family you couldn't afford to send the children to school , I know I wanted to go in the worst way. ~-~f. high I went five and a half years to public school and I passed and they told me I was good in school so I tried everything but my dad couldn •t afford it. ,l And so very few I children went to high school even though there was a lot of smart kids I - but there was no money to be had. Q. Was your family close to other Finnish settlers? A. No, this was mostly an English community, they were the only Finns there. Dad had to learn some English when he worked out and he got along all right with the English but well, it wasn't easy. About twelve or thirteen years before the other settlers there came two or three families from Finland, to locate in South Gilles. Mother would visit people along with father Nolalu - all the way they'd drive with the horses or oxen. at And then we had a nice little lady _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , she was. ·an assistant coach - well she could understand, my mother wouldn't know a word here or there, and she'd put it all together. She used to visit our place often and I remember her �when I was little, sometimes some of the things she told us ...... And they would walk a long way - some of them used to be ten mile walks. Then of course there was the Women's Institute but my mother didn't belong because she wasn't fluent enough in English. The Women's Institute· was a wonder- ---- ful thing though because they would go once a month and they'd all gather there. They would go with the horses and the men would go too - it was in the afternoon. The men would have a meeting by themselves and talk about farming and the women would have their meeting and talk about different ways • of doing things - making soap, preserving eggs. and preserving other things. They learnt a lot of things in the Women's Institute. I think it was sort I of a university for a lot of women. They were a very good organization. Q. A. Did you ever join? Yes, I'm a life member of the Women's Institute for almost forty years. I joined the institute ten years after I got married , and I found it very rewarding. I was at the time very shy, couldn't get up to speak or say anything but finally it was hard for me to say "I second the motion". Eventually I got up and gradually I was named for many ~ffices in the _, institute. I was in the Council for three years_; on the School Board, etc. Q. All this in South Gilles? Yes. That sounds like political involvement - how did you develop that way - to A. Q. A. Q. A. want to participate in the community? I'm an avid read.er, I read a lot and I think that then, the Women's Institute and everything helped. I had learned much more after I left public school than I ever learned in public .school. Bit by bit, reading and all that I became quite a politician. I know all the Conservatives and Liberals and CCF and Social Credit. I make it my business to know their pu.atf:orms and what they want to do and what their ideas are. Of course you can't really know politicians ,you have to take it with a grain of salt. When you were young did yoµ and your husband talk about politics? We did, right from the start. My husband did not go to school very long in Finland because where he lived they didn't have public schools until he was fourteen. He went to school for about one year but he's very good in arithmetic and he reads and writes and knowledgable in world af'fairs. He's like me he reads a lot of books and magazines - too many in fact. If I had had more education I would have been a politician. But, I haven't II �Q. A. got the gift of gab, if I'd have got more education perhaps I would have got the ability to phrase the words differently. Can you describe your life when you were a young woman in Gilles? What was it like for you? What kind of expectations did you have? He didn't have too many expectations because the times weren't very good and the Depression years struck us, mostly because we didn't have a chance to go to school - the majority of women, only two that I know of, went to high school, and they only went about two years. One started teaching and the other was a clerk. What we thought about was - you get marri-oo,____....,,. and you settle on a farm. This was our big objective, we couldn't think of anything else. Married women didn't go to work and in the Depression years if you were married and if you were a teacher, you couldn't get a job. The single people were hired, you could not get a job if you were married. It was thought that you would settle on a farm and somehow get enough to get clothes for yourself. Had wood stoves and box stoves and you would use them in the winter time for heat. You got goods like milk and butter from your cows, the eggs and meat from chickens and we'd grow a garden and grow potatoes, you could pick wild berries. . There was good food, no doubt about that. We had no meat freezers then but we put the carrots in the sand;with the other vegetables and things we would use the root cellar. The cellar was dug into a little hill and you'd line it with seed and - - - - - and put double doors on it and aJ.l the vegetables would be kept there. I know sometimes in July we had carrots that were just like they'd been taken out of the garden, they'd keep so well. And the potatoes and turnips and we make pickles of all kinds. There was no -- Q. A. problem in getting food on the farm, but it was trying to get anythin_g____; else that was bad, because money was so hard to come by. Where did you learn your skills to preserve food and meat? My mother mostly and from other women talking about how they did it and I'd get tips from others. I remember my mother - moose meat was always available, there was so many moose and deer running around the fields that I know a lot of: people shot them out of season because there were too many. My mother would clean, wash and drain the meat and she'd pack the meat in jars, about 1½ quarter or 2 quarter jars and she would add about a tbsp. of salt and put alspice on top, That would boil for about six or seven hours in a big wash boiler and you'd put little sticks on the bottom so �5 that the jars wouldn't hit the bottom and then you'd boil them outside and you kept them boiling for about six to nine hours. That meat was so delicious, I can't describe it to you, it had a flavour all it's own. It was better than any other canned meat I've tasted. Some people salted it down Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. but it had to soak for quite a while ' and then it was boiled or roasted with pork .• if you had pork you would put it on top because moose meat is very fat and deer meat is very fat. And my mother always made real soap from the fat and the bones were put in as well ..... this was good for washing clothes. Do you think there was a lot of co-operation between the women? Yes there was, but there had to be. My mother was having problems with the language and I would know the language from going to public school, so I would interpret for her. And then they had quilting bees and things like that. Do you think there was any ostracization of certain families if they were very poor? Yes, in a way there was. I know one family that was very poor and they had quite a few children and the other children would comment about their poor clothes .... And there was no social services, they couldn't get any help, but the children turned out very well, much better than anyone ever would have expected. Can you talk about some of the social activities that went on in South Gilles? Yes, box and pte socials and the picnics and the school concert - they were something because we had very little other recreation. Pie socials well it was a pie social, everybody would bring a pie and they would be auctioned off and you have the name and you'd have them all decorated, the handle and the pie plate and then the men would bid on these. Then they'd have another for younger people, from about 13,14 to 16 year olds and then the boys would bid on these. I remember one, we were at ---School which was about five miles from Gilles School, we went mostly to Gilles School but sometimes we went out there. And then there was the teacher, she had told her boyfriend what the pie was like so all the other young men, well, they had eyes and ears. Sure enough, he started bidding because he lmew it was the teacher's. Eventually he had to pay 13 dollars, for that pay, he had to work about a whole week. Where did the money go? It went to the school and hall. It was sort of a community affair. In the winter time sometime we had a social were the women provided a lunch, there �was no dance, and we had all kinds of games. Then there were the school picnics, where a big truck would take the school children and go to the _ _ and spend the day. There were platforms put on the bottomeof the truck and they weren't very well fastened so whenever we took a tum, the whole truck would sway. And then the school concerts, we used to prepare for that two months ahead. I remember going once to S. Gilles for the con- cert and it lasted to midnight - the different costumes and the work of the mothers and teachers, was tremendous. The concert usually ended after about an hour and a half to two hours but this lasted to midnight. It was a Christmas concert and it was performed five or six days before Christmas, but now it has been discontinued which is a shame because this was a type of training for the children - they took children from the audience who would do their piece if they had courage - it was a living process. they said the children spent too many hours of school time on it. But I rem- ember when I went to school, not one hour was spent of school time on it, was noon hour and recesses that we did all the work and practise for the concert. I think they should have been kept on in the country because the children don't have the same opportunity to perform before an audience ~, Q. A. _J_/}~- Who helped you when you had your children? There were midwiYes. J The majority of the women had their babies at home, and I know my mother had ten children and she was never in the hospital once, and everything turned out fine. The first time she went to the hospital was when she was seventy years old. died in our community at birth. I don't think there was a child that I think the women were stronger in those days, they worked until they were ready to have the baby, which helped I think because when you 're on the go you 're strong. I can remember one woman saying that this man 1-iad a horse and it was in foal, and he had a hired man so he says to him that the mare is in foal but be very careful of her, when you turn corners, turn them gently. But his wife was pregnant and she worked day and night and he never told her to take it easy. The young colt was worth money but the baby was just one too many. Q. What about heal th care? Did women give each other hints on that? A. We had old time cures for different things and if it didn't help well the person died ..... Cures like this didn't always work .... Q. Is there any interesting story or anecdote about your life or another woman's life you would care to relate? A. Q. I can't think of anything. In what way? Just a story or concerning what? Something that shows your pioneer spirit, or maybe just a woman who stands �out in your mind; what she did for the community etc. A. Well, in the community I was in everything. as an individual. Politically I had never held although I had been interested in it, but I had not had enough an office education. Of course I went to all the political meetings etc. and I helped when they had an election as a scrutineer. They gave me the papers and told me how to do it and I worked on that. Q. What about in S. Gilles, what kind of work did you do there? A. I worked as a farmer's wife but then I was on the Council for years, I was still on the Council before I left. Q. Were there a lot of women on the Council? A. Not very many and I was elected yea:r: after yea:r, and then I was on the School Board for ten yea:rs, but I had to retire from the boa.rd. Q. What gave you this idea to run for office? A. Some people asked me. position myself. I think I would have been to timid to go for the I was a timid woman, I didn't put myself forward at all, I always had a low estimation of myself. Q. Do you think that is typical of farmwomen, I mean they were a pretty independant lot, why did they feel timid? A. Because I think most of them had very little education, I think most of them didn't even have grade school. The times were so, that if they got grade school educations they were lucky, most people thought that it wasn't worth educating a girl. F,ducate the boys if you can, but a girl - I remember my father saying to me - "Well you can change diapers withou;t· an education' ' . The way he put it, I would be a wife and I'd have children and I'd have a home. Q. This was the attitude of most of the community. I've heard that most rural women had more education than their husbands because the boys had to be taken out of school to do farmwork. A. This is true, as far· as the husbands go. education than their husbands. I think most of the women had more The new school was built and the old school was moved to the other side, and a new road was built. things. And yo, organized A new Ladies Aid of the United Church ..... the small church faded out of the picture after, For yea:rs, the co.:..ops existed, and then I was a member of the board of directors because there were very many co-ops then. There were many meetings I had to go to and I was the first secretary of the Hall Board, and I don 't know how I ever got the time. Q. Can you talk about your farmwork, what kind of working day you had on the farm? �q A. Well, it was niixed farming. We had chickens and cows and of course in the Depression years we worked on the farm and I did a little bit of sewing. We cleared. the land but we moved - we stayed on that farm for about three yea.rs. We moved to another farm and we built a new house and we had cows for a while but we decided to go into poultry and we built a poultry house. We found it very rewarding in the way of money as well. We got more raised than we bought actually because we bought themaa day old and they always would give us three or four extras for each hundred, so we raised more poulets than we paid for. Very few of them died. During the summer we would take many hundreds of them to Safeway - so we got double the price. Q. Did you dress them and kill them? A. We killed them and dressed them but they were New York fashion - we didn't take the insides out - we kept them cool for the night and the butcher shop did the cl ea.ning. We plucked them, my husband knew a way to kill them you know, to pierce the brain and then they were plucked and with a blow torch any hair that was left was singed, then they'd be cleaned and wrapped in wax paper. As for the eggs, we had a good market for our eggs. People say that chickens smell, well our didn't. , we had a ventilation system that was really good. We never cleaned the litter it crone up to about 10,12 inches high and it was dry. We had to clean what dropped out and the wire under the roost so that the chickens would never get under the dropping pens. In the daytime when they were scratching, all the droppings would fall into the litter and it would dry. Q. Did you like working with the animaJ.s? Did you do as much work with the chickens as your husband? A. Yes. ActuaJ.ly in the summertime he would look after the big house and feed all the chickens in the big house, while I looked after the young ones on the range. of it. We had them fenced in and good grass so that they'd eat a lot I liked the chickens, and I had the garden and about an acre of lal-m with lots of flowers and trees, and we planted about a hundred trees. When we first moved there there was nothing but jack pine so we had to cut them all and replant. Cutting that lal-m was a lot of work - three hours with that lawnmower, sometimes people would stop there and look. I remember someone telling my neighbor - "You know, I just had to stop my car and look at that place". We sold it and left it. Ue went out of the 'chicken bus- iness because it wasn't very1good any more and chicken ranches were coming up where they'd have 30,000 chickens, they ran it much more efficiently. We bought this house two and a half years before we moved here. the farm that much but I miss the neighbors. I don't miss We had good friends and that �Q. is what I miss the most. It seems that a lot of women in the country were really more involved in the community than those in the city were. Do you think that their opinion was always respected as equals to the men? A. I'm not sure but I think they were. I know a lot of women used to take part in events, and they had a Ladies Aid of the United Church and then they had the Women'·s Institute but they didn't last very long. Put the I don•~ know why. Women's Institute together and no matter what - dinners etc. they always came to the Women's Institute, and they would do it. There was a lot of co-operative women, they helped in any way they could, if someone asked them to something to raise funds for the Cancer Society, they would and everyone knew that others benefitted. Q. One person I talked to remarked that if it wasn't for the women, the communities would not have got settled because women worked with groups. A. Yes, I think it was the women in the community who worked so hard. I rem- ember when we were in the first haJ.1., it was the Women's Institute Hall, it was only insured for : two thousand dollars and it burnt - it was worth five thousand. All the equipment burnt and everything. With four thousand dollars, the Community Center was started and we put out tenders and it was the bare necessities that were put up first and later on it was renovated. It was the Women's Institute who started all this and it wouldn't have been there if not for the women. Q. They were the organizers? A. Yes they were the organizers of the Hall, of course we got the co-operation of the men too. The women planned these things and of course you had to get the men - you can't build anything without the men. Q. Do you think it was more important to the women to have community organizations? A. Yes, I think so. The women looked at things a little differently than men. They raised their children and I think the women looked ahead more than the men. Q. How did the climate and physical environment of Northwestern Ontario affect your life? A. It curtailed our social life to a great extent in the winter time because the roads weren't open and when we went to school we had to walk on the sleigh trail of the horses which had gone by previously. Later on they made a snow plow and they had about 17 horses and a dozen men behind which would go ahead of the horses and clear a little snow if there was an especially bad snowdrift. In the summertime it wasn't that bad but again �(O the roads were very poor, the ruts were six, s even inches deep, but the old Tin Lizzy would go over anything. The cars then were higher off the ground so they didn't scrape the bottom. It took us about two hours to get to the city and that's a long time. We used to walk - five miles was nothing to wa']k to a dance, so we'd walk there, dance all night, and walk back home again. I think that we wanted to go so bad that five miles was nothing. Q. What was your earliest recollection of your mother or some other woman that was important in your life? A. I think Aunt Cassy was another woman who was very important in my childhood. She was always meek and merry, she'd be always laughing and talking. She wasn't really my aunt her name was Mrs. Carson, everyone called her Aunt c~assy. Q. What qualities about her did you ad.mire? A. Actually she was very jolly and I think this was what drew me to her more than anyone else. A child likes a jolly woman - she'd talk to the child- ren and laugh - I can't re~ber anything else but her personality. Q. You didn't get the impression that she found her life greulling etc. A. No, she had a very simple life - a house with two rooms , one was used a the bedroom and the other as a dining room and kitchen. I remember as a child papering all the wa1ls with newpaper and it wasn't rea1ly effective. see some people now papering their dens with newspaper . -would do that and everything was neat and claan. I Every year she The study was inside and because of the rough boards it was rea1ly hard to paper and I don't know how many layers of peper she had to use on that. Q. She never had any children? A. No. Q. How did she gain her 0)id w 1{Q(lLiskills? A. I don't know, she came from t C East and I don't know whether she ·just practised herself or if she found out from somebody else. Q. What do you think was the hardest part of being a country woman in the old days was? A. The hardest part was the work and I don't think there was much social life. Q. • •••• Very few people could afford reading material. If someone got a book it wa : passed around the whole community ..... Do you think there has been a positive change in the woman's role �• • A. even as farmwomen? I think there has been a big change. I think after the Second World War when women went out to work, there has bit by bit been a change in the men's attitute towards women. independant. Now the majority of women work and they a.re Before I remember women had to beg for m:oney from their husbands for groceries etc. Q. There doesn't seem to be the closeness among ruraJ. women as their used to be. A. No, one goes om:J way and the other one goes another way. We used to stick together in the old days, of course then we had no recreation and no transportation. They just get into the car and go now. Everything now is youth orientated and the older people seem to be left out. I don't think it is a matter of respect, but they don't seem to care for the old folks as much as they used to. The young women nowadays a.re much more freer. I think there has been a big change. Q. Do you think they lost something not being as close to other women? A. I think in a way they have. , ...... . Q, Can you taJ.k about your work in the co-operatives? How did you get involved in the first place? A. He had just one store in the community and you would go to the store and you'd have to wait a.round for an hour or a half an hour for them to open the store, !nd when they went to dinner for an hour the store would be closed again. So the farmers were getting pretty disgusted so they said the best thing would be to open a co-op store. be open aJ.l the time. If they had a co-op it would So the people donated logs and lumber and they had one carpenter and the whole store was worth it. The men and women both worked and this is where I got involved in the store, and the store was built and people started living - it was a wonderful thing for the community. You would sell your work, and the milk was taken to the dairies - of course there was the co-op dairy for a while. their milk than they ever did. that wa:sn 't very good. People got so much more for They did have a truck hauling cream but But the milk, the money really started coming in. Then if you needed anything from the city, you di:dn 't have to go there yourself, the co-op truck would bring anything you needed. You could sell everything like your hay, at a much better price than you used to. So then I got into the committee work and then they joined with the co-operative in Port Arthur and everybody bought shares. �• Q. When did it start to decline? A. Q. What was the role of women in the co-operative? 'A.. do? Girls and young women in the community would work there. Q. Did women do any organizing work for raising funds? A. Yes. cash. What kind of work did they The co-op should not have given credit, it should have been strictly This is when it declined. because people wouldn't pay their bills. I think they just should have had it on a cash basis. We could have sold the goods much cheaper if only cash were used. Q. Can you remember the P & D and what kind of effect it had on the community? A. Yes, it was a wonderful thing at first. The farmers would haul the ties up to Hymers etc. but when the trucks came, I think this was the decline of the P & D. Because people didn't go to the city by train anymore, they got cars and when trucks came, the people started hauling wood via trucks. Q. Did you know Mr~.Mitchell at all? A. No, I didn't but I knew some people who knew her very well. down in the other end, she lived in Whitefish. She lived way She was quite a woman, and that book she wrote, I just read it. Q. You said that your mother and father were from Finland, what kindoof things did your mother do to preserve her Finnish culture? Do you think that was important to her? A. I don't think at that time. She just worked and worked, she didn't do any- thing else, and there weren't too many Finns in the community. There were three other farms which were Finnish and that was in 1920 and mother had lived in an English community for years. So I don't think she did anything to restore it, except speak the language. I started learning and she would help me with the writing and spelling. Q. How did you feel? A. I don't know ...... . Did you want to preserve your culture? � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Impi Maki Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Canada - Ontario - South Gilles Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs. Impi (Tissari) Maki in Thunder Bay on June 27, 1978, by Georgina Garrett. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of three sides of two cassette tapes, available here as MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play the files.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. Mrs Maki was born in 1911 and lived in South Gilles for 59 years. Her father immigrated from Finland and worked in the US for two years before moving to Port Arthur and her mother then immigrated with three young children. Buying 160 acres, they cleared the land and began farming. The interview talks about her mother's work on the farm and raising a family of ten children. Discussions centre around the rural community, family life, farming, women's organizations and women's work. Mrs Maki speaks about being involved in political meetings, community leadership, the Women's Institute and the Co-op Store. The interview offers a detailed look at farm life in a rural community in Northwestern Ontario from women's lived experiences through life in the Depression, WWII and beyond. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-06-27 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/c8485c0002c9706ed7a6facc42b09cfd.mp3 25f8905b2490c120d946c03575ea96f7 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/a254e34517aef8ba27de9aca11c998f7.pdf cf06c968ba5a3cbf39a65225bb84e344 PDF Text Text Interview of Mrs. D. Murray by Georgina Garrett ---@__MQmen.Ls A: In-s-tlttttes- ... my father and Mr. Cooper were friends, and I knew she was an Institute lady, and that was, I felt, part of their project. There was an Institute in Pearson, but they weren't getting, I mean, they were going along befriending everybody, but again there was no money for the, you know, with them, or for them. raising money, because nobody had any. No way of So I told, wrote to Mrs. Cooper and I told her that I had a family , or two, with children in it and so on and they were lacking this and that and the other. kids outgrow things. Could they help, because often You know how it is still today. So, by golly, they had a shower shall we call it and boxes of stuff I had my present, my husband now, he is at present but at that time he wasn't, pick up the stuff and brought it out, and so we were able to help a number of the families that way. Well then another time, a couple of families were really hard up for food. Really, you'd think living on a farm there was food, but the crops were poor and so they had potatoes and that was about all. So I wrote to her again. some help, can you help us?" I said "We need So, they did. Then jars of fruit, cans of beans, cans--anything and everything, boxes of stuff. into town. - - - - - -I married my husband and we came So east Fort William by that time--and then I was a, had joined the Institute out there. Their Secretary-Treasurer, well, just quit in the middle of a year, so who was going to take iit? And I used to go to �-2the meetings when I could, after school. So, I said, "Well I can't meet with you people at two or two-thirty, 'cause school's on. But what we could do, I saw the Inspector, and he said 'well, if the senior girls want to go to the meetings, where they could have them in the school, teach through the noon hour or give them fifteen minutes for lunch'". So that's what we did, and then the senior girls came, we had it in the school from then on. So that, and then so I took the Secretary-Treasurer for them, and finished out that year, and then as I say, jwe were married, and I catne into town. Eastfort, Westfort were both pulling me. Westfort was easier, I could walk down Brown Street to the homes; the other was way was a longer walk. The younger group in Westfort, my own age. But I felt, well, Eastfort has done so much for me, I just said ''Can you help", and help came. So that's how I got into Eastfort. Q: What year was that? A: Nineteen fourty-one. A: .... practically the same, I would say. Oh sure, each community's going to have something different, or something, but as a whole 2: But you want to get an overall picture, too. It's actually their likeness that comes across, but then that's a good thing too, because it's women united. A: That's right. 2: ... Which is really ..... . �-3A: Which is right, yeah ... Q: It's the similarities that stand out more than the differences. A: Yeah, yeah. Q: I know, yesterday in Dorion, where I was talking to Mrs. Atkinson. She was mentioning that the Women's Institute, the women were very close despite racial differences, ethnic background, whatever. So, I would sort of like to find out, is that true of the Thunder Bay rural woman? I don't really know. How close were, lets say, Finnish women farmers to people from the British Isles, or were they, did the women have to be self-sufficient. A: Well, there again, I'd say, I taught in a, first taught in a Finnish community. There were no English people in that cormnunity. Q: In Pearson? A: No, no. Q: Oh yeah. A: You see, there again, I would say, now at Chabaqua, they In Chabaquao. • didn't have an Institute. They stayed more or less to themselves .......... . Q: Well A: No. we're not just doing Institutes, you know. And there in that area the Finnish people stayed more or less to themselves. Oh there were, down at the station, the section people were Ukrainian descent, talked Ukrainian at home, Finnish ___ there, there was only one And when I was out lady, really, that talked �-4- Englishe, and she had gone to school there, and taught, and not taught but, she married, and they had a store, and so I, that was my companion. with her mother. You see, I boarded The children spoke Finnish, as soon as they--Finn or Finnish,whatever you want-- as soon as they left the school and home. And some of the parents realized that wasn't good and they said to me "Make them talk English all the time. You see, the parents couldn't, a good many of the parents, some of the men could and the odd woman, but they were afraid of putting their subject or their verb, you know, mixing it up. They were afraid of that, and so they were very hesitant about talking English to anyone, not just to me, but to anybody. We And ahm,--that could talk English. Well, you can't follow every child home. yard, I did insist after I them in In the school- Finnish, but even in the schoolyard, see, they would talk Finn. Well, naturally, that's their language. 2: Sure, it would come easiest. A: So I insisted after that, in the schoolyard, that they did. I said, ''You might, as well. you might as well learn." I loved them. You're here to learn, You know we got along well; I was out there three years, and it was just one big happy family. those people, very good. They were very good to me, Well, then when I went into Pearson, well then you had a mixture, well mostly English ... Q: Some were ScandinavianQ �A: ... --Anglo-Saxono Uhm? Q: Some were Scandinavian, the Olsen's? A: Yes, the Olsen's were Scandinavian, but, but, what will I say, as much or more Anglo-Saxon as the Anglo-Saxon. You know what I mean. There was no distinction there. There was one or two Finnish families, but they were, they were accepted, and they carried on with all the right rest of us. Maybe a little bit different ~there, I don't know what it was. But as a whole, they all got along together and worked together, and when there was something on, well they all worked, you know, they all carried on. Like I know, through the school end of it, you know, the concerts and things like that. So the families naturally were more eager to help or something. Q: Do you think the women co-operated a great deal, and helped each other out alot? A: Oh, I think so. Oh, yes. Q: In what ways? Q: Well, when there was sickness, they would help out, ayh, go and help people. Now, in Chabaqua, the lady I stayed with, as I say, it was all, mostly Finnish settlement, she had no nursing training, but whenever there was somebody sick or a baby on the way, there was an English-an Anglo-Saxon lady, young couple, what, three or four miles down the road going to have a baby, so they came ou know with the hand car rail, they borrowed one of those somehow and got her to go there. So it was the same thing in Pearson, although they went into town to have �-6babies, but at the same time, when there was illness or something, they co-operated. When somebody got burned or-- burnt out or something, they all co-operated. a happy situation. yes. It was Oh, yes, they would co-operate. Ah, Well, I don't know, maybe half a mile, a mile away from somebody, that's your neighbour. You don't care what they are, as long as ______________ ou go and talk or you have a cup of tea or something like that, ayh. 2: You know what !mean, . 1.t, . ' 1.t s . . . . . . . . . . . . Yeah. y~t probably people would integrate an awful lot better, simply because of circumstances. A: That's right, yeah, yeah. Q: Do you think farm women were treated, on the whole, as equals to the men, or were they treated sort of somewhat subserviant, next to the animals or something? A: I can only talk for two areas. Chabaqua, I would even think the women were the boss, the head of the household. to do. They sort of told, tell them what they were going No, they weren't treated as aminals or, or ... Q: Not as animals, but what I mean is .... A: No, no, I know, but I mean No, no. So far as I know, they're, and in many cases, I'm just thinking back to, oh, four or five definite families in the area, you know, where the woman was sort of the boss of the house, sort of thing. were equals. And in _?earson, I think they They would talk, any house I was in, they would talk about what they were goinna do or something, you know, and a crop had to be done, or this had to be �-7done. Women helped; they had to. You know, out in the fields and that, because there wasn't always enough help. Not all women, but some of them. this ah, no. But there was none of Not like you used to think. 'Course, I think these ahm, the father and then the mother down in the house were years and years ago. in the rural areas. Before _ ____out And certain types of people, too. Certain races. Q: So do you think the work of women was always valued as highly as that of men. Of course, I suppose the work was somewhat the same. A: Well, I think,like they knew that the--! think it was valued, because the woman did her work in the house, which was necessary to keep the man going, ayh 9 And if the haying time, and she was needed, I think the father or the husband appreciated the fact that the mother went out and helped to - - - - , or whatever had to be done. In any of the communities I were in, yes. Now in the, in the Pearson section where I was, the man would get the potatoes and so on. go out and help. The women would I often used to go after four. Out in Chabaqua, another rural area, Finnish area, the women did that sort of work. That was women's work rather than men's work, and yet the man didn't look down on woman because she did that sort of thing, you know. Q: What did the women do with the children when they did farm work? A: Took them with them if they could, or there'd be �-8- somebody else to look after them, like in the older children. I don't ever remember any child being left alone in the house. And then again, as I say, and some of those times I was there when the children were not tiny little ones. There was a few families that had little ones, but then there always bigger ones to look after the little ones if mother was out in the field or so. Q: Did you ever get the impression that maybe the women were a little disappointed with the circumstances, some of them coming from cities in Britian, or Scandinavia, and then being plunked in the middle of Northwestern Ontario bush? A: Well, there weren't too many--there were some that had come from, whose husbands had good jobs in town, and went out to the farm, because the farm was the thing to do, make a living, get the kids out on the farm, you know, out of trouble, and they'd had lovely homes and so on in town 9 But I never heard any complaints. of accepted it. They sort It was the kids they were coming out for, and they accepted it. It was harder work than in town, because you had a well to get water from and so on, and especially Anita(?) , I don't remember. Pearson it's different now. turn them on. Now again in They have taps and they But when I was out there it was well water or you hauled your water from the___ But there was always a youngster to do that, you know, mother didn't have to do that. But most of them accepted their lot. �-9One lady, of Norwegian descent I think it was, her husband was a housepainter in town. He got the idea the country was the only place, so he went out to Pardee, which is further on than Pearson. And not knowing anything about building a house, he built a house down at the bottom of the hill. Well, in the spring, the water used to leak right through the house. Now, I did hear her complain, but who wouldn't. Not complain, but say "Why did we ever leave?" They came down, they had to come down the river, in the spring when they came there, in a canoe, so they paddled their way down. in a boat, And then, she didn't know anymore about where to build a house than he did, and so as I say. But never again did I hear her ~say, "Oh, I'm going to leave", like today you hear, "Gee, I'm not puttin' up with it, I'm gettin' out, oand if you don't come, I'll go on my own". 'Course, the women didn't do that then, what thirty years ago, thirty-five, fourty years ago. Thirty-seven years, anyway. But yet, every year the same thing happened, until finally they did build another place. years and years. But this went on for No, I can't really ever say that I, maybe because the people that I came into contact with hadn't had moeny or an affluent life in the country they'd come from. I know a lady that came out, her husband went out to Scobol, and she had been well-to-do. she accepted it. Well They didn't stay there long, because I don't, I, well, a few years. She was, when my baby �-10was born, she was the nurse in the hospital. She was a nurse, and she'd had, they'd had a good living ~in ~ England, and came out, and then he got this crazy, you know, I shouldn't say crazy, but the idea your going to live on a farm. He got this piece of land in Scobol where nobody could raise anything. few years they went back to town. But after a Again, I never heard her say, "What the dickens did we do that"--she did say, "Coming from London to here", you know, but never did I hear her grumble about it. grumbling today. Q: I don't know. Were the daughters of the families treated as valuably as the boys? A: I think there's more I know that sometimes that's· ------- Well, agian I say, from what I gathered, yes. I think when you think of that idea, you're going back before my day in the country. Maybe eighteen ninety's or something, or nineteen hundred's, where they wanted boys so they could work on the farm, ayh? But in many cases, where there were no boys, the girls helped the father. So, I mean, they were, they perhaps couldn't work as hard as the boys ·, but still they did the job, too. In fact, one family out in Pearson, there were four or five boys and three girls, and the ,~i:,_: one girl, she didn't like to work in, so she worked as hard as the boys did outside. She loved that, and so she was treated as an equal by her brothers as well as by the father. The mother often used to say she shouldn't be working like that, she should be in the house doing things. But she �-11- she wanted to stay outside. Any that I have contact with, yeah. Q: How did you feel as a woman teacher out in the bush? A: In the bush. And Chabaqua was bush then, because they were just building the highway out through there. Actually, I liked it very--at first, it was a, sort of a frightening experience, because I went in where no one was talked to. You see, where I boarded, the ~l lady could say "Eat, now" or Finnish word for teacher. 0 ).- , f pe,\a.) Ct II , that's the But after the first month, I was very homesick the first month, I didn't want to eat or anything. But after that, I just loved the place. Q: How old were you when you went out? A: Twenty. Through normal school, I didn't go to University, I took University sometime after. came home once a month. And I Department of Highways was working out there, or Ministry of Highways, it's not a Department. They had a true~, and I'd get a ride with them Friday nights and go back Sunday night with one of the men that were going back to the camp. The road was passable. Q: I read that, especially among the Finns, the A women teachers were really highly respected. A: Oh, yes. I was. I didn't want to say that, but oh, yes. And through this girl whose husband had the store, through Laura, she told me that the people, oh, the Inspector told me tooo He said that they didn't know anything �-12about the system of education or any--you know, things like that. So they left it up to me, and they knew it would be all right. And I was very highly respected. And very, very well treated. Gifts at Christmas--now, again, they were hard up, too, and so it wasn't gifts of stockings, or things like that, but jars of fruit to bring home to my mother. me, but through my mother. You see, not only through Chickens and beef, and stuff like that, where in those days we didn't have a fridge, and so it was just the same, that stuff. Oh, no. And yet when I left--and they left the system of education up to me, and I did, I honestly did my best. Because of their trust, too. But then I was, I'm not meaning to boast, but I wanted to do the best I could. When I went out to Pearson, it was different. We had one family in there--it was the system, writing. first the children printed. At Well then the new system, Mr. Mustard the new Minister of Education said they must learn to write. Well it's harder for a child to write than it is to print, so I used to teach so much printing at the start and then write. And I got ever so many letters from pare--from this one particular family, about them writing. You know, (garbled). I guess they'd read the paper, and knew there was going to be writing instead of printing, and so on, in letters. Well, I didn't get any, never got a--'course they couldn't write in English at Chabaqua, but at the same time, they left it to you. For the best results. �-13- Q: Yeah. Ahm. Oh. When did you leave teaching? Did you retire in town? A: No. I taught three years at Chabaqua, five years at Pearson, and then I got married, and that was it. Q: Were you not allowed to teach as a married woman? I know that that was the case earlier. A: Well, it was to a certain extent. Well, I didn't want to, my husband was, it was war time, and my husband was wanting to get in the Air Force. him down. Well they turned So he tried to get in the army, and they turned him down, because his heart. And I had, they had wanted me to come to town, like when I got married, to teach, but at that time, if he'd gone away, I was gonna go too. And that was my, you know, my , what we were going to do. away. So I didn't get into town right And then I felt, well, I had enough to do. I was interested in making his home, and I belonged to the Institute, and you get into other things through the Women's Institute. Well then we had a daughter and then when,--! would never go to work, I said, while she was young, so when she went to kindergarten. And it wasn't 'til she was grade five that I went back to to supply teaching. But only~ two or three schools. I'd be home when she was home. Now I know today, the system was different, altogether. to do. That isn't the thing You go and you get a babysitter . . But I didn't believe in that. And then I supplied at _____ three or four years ago. I could have gone on �-14- teaching, but I didn't want to. Q: Do you think work outside the home is important for women? A: You were a teacher. That's hard to answer. individual, ahy? I think that's up to the You know, like myself,--well, I have these other interests outside the home. no money with it. There's Depends too, on what, whether the woman's working for money to get something, or what. It's up to the individual. Q: Why did you want to be a teacher? A: Uhm? Q: Why did you want to be a teacher? A: Oh, because when I was going to highschool, the depression was on, and there were three places you worked, in a store, or a nurse, or a teacher. You couldn't be--and there was no air hostesses or anything like that, you know. No. And so, I just happened, I went into teaching. I liked children, I liked teaching. We also, every sunnner used to play school when we were kids, and I was always the teacher. So the kids knew their multiplication tables when they went back to school. it. have. Oh no, I enjoyed Maybe if there'd been, if it was today I wouldn't There's so many opportunities, I might have flitted from job to job, because there's so many things that I would loved to have been ino journalist and so on. Public relations, My daughter has the life, had the life until she got married what I would have enjoyed. She went through journalism, then she worked for the �-15government, was up on the hill, you know, - - -oh, boy, and travelled the country. But . . . . Q: ? A: ? Q: So you think things are better for women now? A: Well again, !--yeah, !---they have more opportunities, don't they? Q: Uhm uhm. A: Because of more opportunities, though, do they take life--well, maybe we took it too seriously. I think anybody that was raised during the depression, they used to--ah, you people weren't? 2: ? A: No. 2: ? A: No, I know you don't. But I mean, those who went through Depression find, we took life too seriously, and I think we still have that tendency to compare today all this money back to when you had nothing, or when you had maybe had one pair of shoes; the sole wore out. As I heard the other night on the radio, ----·just stick cardboard in your shoe. Now I'm not meaning that that happened with everybody and so today on, but ahm, oh, opportunities are greater I\ And again, if a woman feels that she wants to be outside the home, I think that's between the--if she's married, between her and her husband, jor something. It's hard to make a yes or no out of that, because j �-16there are different circumstances, different ..... You hear women saying, "Well, I have the brains, why shouldn't I do this if I can still have children and get the babysitter, in?" Well, when they get married, if they both think that way, well .... Q: It's hard to make a (end of tape) This has been Georgina Garrett talking to Mrs. Doreen Murray, June 21st, 1978, in Thunder Bay South. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Doreen Murray Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs Doreen Murray in Thunder Bay, June 21 1978, by Georgina Garrett. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of one side of a cassette tape, available here as an MP3 file. (Click on the speaker logo to play the file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. The interview talks about what farming life was like, the need for assistance, rural Women’s Institutes, and family life in the areas of Shabaqua, Pearson and Scoble. Discussions centre around women’s work, care for children, immigration, language, learning, and the resilience of families who settled into farm life. Mrs Murray, as a teacher in Northwestern Ontario in the bush, travelled out for the week to teach. She taught for eight years before getting married, moving to town, and starting her family. Returning to supply teaching while caring for a family, Mrs Murray shares about what it means for an individual to choose a job outside the home, through the Depression and the war. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-06-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Fort William Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/8cadf7e791ed91c7c469478069965d8c.mp3 a8d89177b7c29ec37c408aacb5b3eb24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Margaret and Walter Hartley Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Release form was obtained by the Herstory project, allowing the recording to be shared and used. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs Margaret and Mr Walter Hartley in Neebing on December 6, 1978. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of one side of a cassette tape, available here as an MP3 file. (Click on the speaker logo to play the file.) Discussions centre about Clara Christiansen who married Lars Olson in 1899 and immigrated from Norway. Arriving two years after her husband, with two young children, the Olsons lived in Fort William before moving to Neebing, then built the house the Hartley’s live in. Referencing a book, the Hartleys discuss Clara raising a family, and being a "doctor woman" (midwife). One of her daughters died of the flu epidemic, one from diphtheria, and five children survived. In 1956 the family sold the place and moved to Mountain Road. Gertie Docking, (nee Olsen), was one of the daughters who grew up on the farm. Looking at pictures, the house was owned by a German family, the Sedwich’s, from 1956-1972, and abandoned. The Hartley’s bought the house and discuss the history of the farm with cows and chickens; women on the farm raising their families; and living amidst the industry boom of lumber and mines. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-12-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/6173196b6018e8fbd4c7d252364fec63.pdf f28fba9aecf069948532d72a3dbed077 PDF Text Text HAZEL CLINK--Barwick Mrs. Clink arrived in Barwick in 1902 on a September night she had a sister and h~r mother artd father. There was nobody to meet them, the C.N. was just coming through so there was no de p ot yet. They walked to the only hotel in town which is on Main Street and spent the night there. The next day her uncle Hod Gillies came to get the~ to take them to his home. Bar\ick t this time was just mud of the street it just rained and r ~ined. Her father had a job as a clerk in Chicago and then decided to come to Barwick. Her uncle Rod Gillies had one hundred and sixty acres and he gavL her father the north eighty acres. They had to clear five acres and put a building on it and then they could get a deed for the place. winter at the Gillies. They spent that her mother came from a well of family and was used to all the luxaries like indoor plumbing, water, electricity but she didn't mind it because the children thrived in the country. There weren't very m~ny doctors at this time so when women h~d babies there was an Indian women who was a mid-wife the white women trusted her very much. The ~ e were quite a few settlers between Rainy River and Fort Fran ces. Before Hazels time it was said a priest tried to teach the Indians about the bible but it didn't turn out so well so he left, in his place a nun came and they said they scal p ed her and she died. By the time Hazel got to this area the Indians were a kindly people. - In the early nineteen hundreds tDere was an abundance of deer, moose, bear and a few elk, they didn't hunt for sport but for food. summer the In the ate partridge, mud hens, rabbits and there were lots of coyotes and timber wolves, ;iazel loved to sit on her porch and listen to them, it was an errie sound but she loved it. The first store was on t 11 e river bank and the first storekee per was W. Thompson and the first hotel keepPr was Thomas Weston and the first school teacher was Thomas Knetal. The first school was an old log cabin and in 1901 there was twenty seven children, Kate Ruttan taught in 1903. At the end of September 1901 and all of October the school was closed because of an �epidemic of diphtheria. Barwicks first Reeve was Thomas Weston and the first Baptist Church preach was Traiten Luckens and he came in 1903. Mr Sam Booth was first and only blacksmith. The Booths lived one half a mile from their place and they hauled water to the school from Booths well. Barwick got its name from a few of the first settlers in Barwick, they were Thomas Weston, James Tierney and George Cawston. The mail used to come by boat as they didn ' t have a post office, the Tierneys had a dock for the convenience of the settlers and the boats. These men then informed the Post Master ~eneral at Ottawa that the name would be Boston but they said there was already a Boston in Ontario so they decided Berwick was a good name but again they were informed that there was already a Berwick in Ea - tern Ontario,~the Post Master General did suggest they change thee to a to make it Barwick so the three decided that it was a fine name. There were getting to be more people settling in this area and more children going to school so the people got together and formed a school board;:it was called Shenston No . 5. In 1903 and 1904 the first new school was built, at this time Hazel was five years old and she remembers Nr. Knectal as one of the firs~ teachers. She remembers the pot bellied stove that heated the school. In the summer for recreation they had ?nnual picnics, and often had box socials. For the picnics everyone donated food, her father used to make the lemonade ~nd her father-in-law used to make th~ ice cream she remembers this time with nostal .ia. Thebo~{ socials used to be lots of fun they used to sell their boxes or auction them off the school teachers used to go for the highest amount but the teenaged girls who were quite popular came close to them. When you bought their lunch you had to eat with the person whom you bought . . In the winter they worked h8rd to get a good Christmas concert, they would all get together at the school one farmer would pie~ everybody up in his steish which was �pulled by a team of horses, they had hot stones for the ladies feet, the horses had bells on their harnesses and it was real nice. They had plenty of blankets to keep warm, they were quite coillfortable, they sang songs going and comin8 to the concert. Santa came to the concert with gifts for everyone. They had sleigh and tobaggan parties and did enjoy the winter. In the summer they picked all kin~s of berries, she started to pick berries at age six and picked berries this summer of 1976. They canned them, made jams and jellies to last from season to season. They raised there own beef, pork chickens, ducks and geese, they made their own vegetables, pickles and saurkraut, they just bought the necessities in those days they made bread, pies and even canned meat that was left over from the winter. They didn ' t have a church at this time so they had their Sunday services in the school. They didn't need weiner roasts, corn roast, games and parties to keep them from coming to church. In those days it was a privelage to go to church and they went. The only time people didn't ~o to church was if they were ill. She always wondered why little children always wanted to be 0 grown up. he feels childhood days are far to short, tha they are the happiest days of our lives, children are carefree, innocent and blesse~,,we understood nothinG of the hollowness of life or the treachery of nature, we don't know sorrow or distrustfullness, or despair. and tha She feels it is good to know there is a wqy of escape is to lean hard on the Hock of Ages. Hazel Clink wrote a book of Poems and Prose which was published when she was over seventy years of age. � https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/cab818485a277dea01a70dd6d4f115da.pdf 5870974a9dffb2d844f02baeab03d350 PDF Text Text - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . - - - -- - - - - - - ("J <rv..-r, ~~~~ ~ \ d I I • - '"', I • &-vnu._ ;~ 1----; ~ ~ a, - -~ ~ ~J C B ~ ,(_R~ ·, d ~/),v({v Lc.W /-,, ;'.·, V.:,..- " 7 I <--vu -~ $ ~ ~ 1 q o 2- ~ J- ~ ~ I \ - t ~ ) G ~ ) ~~ ~ ~ ~ Ra.eJ.J., ~ , w,,.d a,,J ~ ~ , ½~ ~. ~ . J ~ _ e . , ~ ~ ;I ~ ~ ~ ~ -~ A-~ ___aw_ ~ r 4t>-v- -&vu- (Ct/4. a_, tlu,., C, ?J, If. ~ ~ ,_-cu,; J ~ ~ ~ - ~7 1 ~"- vu., oft -ti..,_ :~ , ~ tJ--ld cd- ~ ~ - e,,~ ;iv ~ ~ 1:t...,_. Lu-tu_ 1/),<...., I 1 c>e tl -) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ , ( ) ~ w-zz-o ~ ~ I J ~ . L f -<--c.:i., ~ ~ , ~0-_ ff/. ~ -t;/l_d / fl /J r • ~ ~ ~:;t; (/ w--tl--f-,,~ ~ _ ~ L ~~~ ~ _ _ , ~ ) h_j_ ~-~ f ul ~ ~ ~ -r;;;t_e- -1-H- -~ ~ olycvdid)'~ : ; ~ ~ ~.I~~~ . :I e, ~ ,~ :;t;z_, ~ , -j--&~ ~ L t:t:_,_ -nu.,__d_ U ev,,,__d_ ~ , 6 ~ b?,..d a,,,,,.d, ~ ---l.u., vJ 3.., 1,::; ~J ·t l, - ~ CL ,9~,, ~~~~a~ ~ C-<.,, W'- 4 -i ~ ti..,_, (' -t ~ ~ cu ~ -½ ,,~ ~ i r,L ~ ; ;,,,.__ tt:_,_ ~,~_,, ~ (f'tn-t~ ~ d- )~-L ~ , .,£~/ do~~~~ ~ . ~ < ~ ~~~ .: k ~ , - Tl CV ~ o/ tt_, ~ f ~ w-d ~ f-,u /4()-f/ ~~ OJ -- - w-4v ~ , W..e..- aJU., tfor 111f ~ /4.-,L l &-v we,,_v--z&a,, u~ ~ tL.,, ~ / -rh--ii.- cU ~ :d,___ ~ ~ /w .z...a__, ~ a.., ' ~ kol ~J (H.,<.A/ f..v7>-e,,,, tt;__,__<A,> -V----U..W , _:iL,, ~ ~ - -- ~ ~ 4../ ./l..o--,,..,,1, /4J LLL. ~ cu~ ~ ~ R J--.:U~ - ~ . , ~ cv--ti~ -~ ~ ;., -t ~ l o -~ . : & ~ a ~ - v£_, ~ , ~~ -0!~ a,,,,,.,d. 4,_~{~,(.,(/4) ~~ ~,-,,,k4.L .ef:; 7, ~ a,Yl4, r l-f/-'-J drv--lu..cl ~ 1-pt,_,__, ~e,,;.,..~__, ~ , ~ ~---n,d I a,.,_._.,L ~ J ,, Zv~ ~-4r~t~;z:t_,__~ "/4-4 ~ ~ - ii ~ -tL,_, ~ ~ ! A),l,:t , 0..- "7 /Pa.~ I ~ ~- l u " i d , ~ r ~ , ~ ~ d ~~ ~ ~ f -~ I __,,/..-J__ t-,.,_, ~ / - ~ ~ 4./ J -~ ~1~ -to t_vn-eh), ht.£,- 4 ~-~ ~ ~ -~ ) ./-ul ~ ,._,,.__, A / ~ ~ ~ _, , ".ct,,_, ~ ~-:t,....d lv1Vv- ~~ -Zv~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~4 ~ 0/~uud J ,: I ~ ~ cp.--t;t;;,..,e. J~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ r 7 i; ~ ~J ~ ~ ~ ~ , '7~ ~-d u, ~~ a..-,..d. �~~ • kt t ~ ~ r; ~ f { f~: t } 't t I : - .1----j-~-j ---- I I :::t...=,.____ I I +--- - • I f ~ ~ t } ~ . r i k f ~ --f fi ~~ \ ~ ~ r1 =~ t ~ ~ f t r '~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~rJ- ~ f ~ ~ ~ r ~ I n f\ l \o t t ' ~ ~'9{, , ~r~ ' t r \' • ' 1~ . r ~r~-r t - r-J ( '- r . f: r t1 l t f ~ f~ ~ ~ Jr- t ~} t t·1 t t !· ! f ~ t f": t t L ~ t r t ~ ~ I ~l : ~· r ~ } ~ ~ ~ tr rt~ J~ i f L ~ t-" t i t ~ ~i I t ~ - ~ ~- ' ~ ,- -~~ t ~ ~ •t r ~ ! r. § t V ~ ~ ~~ LJ•,,r I t~f y1-l J rr~~i ~ ~- • �0 ; ~ . -; l ~ --' -- I . 01 • f t- i - 1--+ , ~ ~, t I S . ~~ ~ • I ~ I ·- . , ~ I f-- ' , .<) l. t t ~ \ ~ -. t_ • : - - ·, --~ - I - , - I I 1 ---t , : 1 1 il t : ' _ \_ _ I ~ I i p I , ~ r ~r f t~tttt . f _ t I f; I I \ I ; t· - : I t 4 I \ ~ I I I I , } ~ { ~~ ~ ~ r ~- ~ ~ ~ l ~~ f> 1 • I I . \ t7=- r~ ~-\ tS> ~ ~ I ~ ~ 1 ~ t~ ~ -Li_~i1~ ~ £' ~- ~ t f ~ t ff ~ ~ t t ~ ~ rJ.-t, :r r'~~ ~rJ~ tt,, '.~ ~~ ~~ f• ~ j 'r. i t~krs- f f ~ \t i ! i ~t'~ r ~ ~t~ £'-} ' ! ~. ~ r 1 ~l: \ t [ i I I ~ ~ ~ l :' r t t" t~ t~1f: f' r ~ r 1 :- ; J : --: -;- -: l : ; : t T,t ~ f ., _ t ~ r r i ~1 ~ : i i r.~ ~ r ~ ~ ~ ~~~ ' ~ I ~1 ! f f•; l j I c v �~ ~-~ .. ~~ . ~ I . ' 4- - ~ -=~ I : ~ ~ , I I ~~ I -~~--=~ = ;' ll. ,. f t l rr J,~ . _r~ r-~ I• J R . ~ fl f , ~ f l , ~ i ~~ " ;J ~· r"-- _. f , -f 1'$: ~ ~ J'tit ~~ t _'~ ~ t, ~ t -~ ~.I ~ ~ t f f ~ '- '~ri • I) ;i ~ ~ ~ l ~ . ~ i ·~ I I ~ -_ - ~ , , l t ,- \ v : ,~ , f ·- •1 ~ r ~ • ! I I ' ~ ll. ~ ~ ~~ ~\- \l l'"' ~ ~ rt ~f t t l t tl t rt t f t tt1 ; f t rii t ; r f~ i r t ~ ; ~ t i -~ ~ t~ ~~ 1>. I - 1 . ~ ~ ~ =---+ ~ ~~ + = - l - - - I I (r t., . _rt f , t~ t t1 ~ . t ~ * r1~ ~ ~ ~ ,- r :-. ~- l I I �' u - ..,. .. / f~~ I ~ ~ ~~ .:Jlw_,J c t ; _ . ~ ~~~ ¥ ~ ~ , J ~ '!J~r- ~ ~ ~ ~ )_:zy,/ ~ I . .JL ~ ~ Ir?~ tV»> ~ rft4.d j ~ul .Be~ /1,,p-o;;/ - I ~ · ~Vd4,/(~,-t:L-~_,~-to~ ~ ~ . , k . w-zw- ~ -t,, ~--,t~-t:L____~_,,~ 4-.,;t ~~~ ~~ ~ , ~J~~~-45~~~~ ~,,.,a,;d -tt;;_ f jw,LP,,,,.1~ ~A._,,, ~ ~ hu,/ ~ ., ~ ~ ~ ~ -- -- ~~ ~ ~ ~~t ~~ ~~ ~ '. d ~ 0 - - i ~ ~.:c,.~~a-.J~, iiu_, ~ ~ - ~ . I d,,,_;_ U/7lA ~~ h-v ~ ~ ~ ~ -t:i:;,, ~ ~ . ,J Xy ~ ~ ~-Ld w~rfJ~ A u l ~ ~ ~ w--LJ ~ &e-u, ~ ~... a,,,...-d 0____,{,L/' 6-i:d- ~ ~ ~ ~ - ( ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ·i :tL ~ 1-r~~~ ~ c...M....t ~ L ~ - Hu_ ~ . I -~a::/~~/~r-;,J- /i?,.,,/,U_~ C&W ~ Q A ~ ~ ~). ~ k ) ~ _,Y~-{i-Ata.~h1_}J-v&/Jl~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~ -~~~~./~~ ~~~ ~ ~ ' I ~ - I ~ ~ . :u = ~ M:L ,. ~~ O>v' ~ . '2,,,,/-.evue. ~ cue_,fo=./ ~ ~.L~) .I ~ (J~ hd-J.-~ _;,_;z_, ~ ~- ~ ~~ 4:.#f. -~; ~~ --- ~ ~ . ) ~ / ~ ~~ ~ J ~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ /lv ffV W-£/ ~~ - -- - ~ h-tN r -~-~~~ ~,~~~ '~ , :M- _/44 ~ J ~ ( /J,~.J:/1<~.i,M ~ ~ ~~ ~ ; ;,-wJ F!,,f. ~ 0~ -if~ ~ ~ 12~ h-./~ f ~~ . :fL - ' ~ U4e-d A-<} f ~ ~ - :2{,_ ; ~ a.-t_~.-:Z, ~ ' ~,) ~ 1~ t ~-W'-U/__; w ~ r - ~ ~ £ / _ ~ / ~ ~~ ~~ #= ~~~ tz;__. ~ ~~ ~-~ {;» 4L,O_d,.;z_w~~ld . ~ -~~~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ 1itd ' ~ ~ . 1/cv ,,c'-o I ~-"41 ~ + ;., _, ~ . ~Ly~deW~l -d~ ~ ~~L~~~~~,1~~1' ~4,.Q 0uL_1~~ �I 1 - -- - . - t . \ - - -= r 't'" r/J <;_-' I),,.._ ~.., ~ V, \ -+- - - ~1 fb~ i ~ t ;-- t~ j i 1 ' ')> I 1 ; : ' -i-- ' ' t=--=t=.=.~- I r t • I ~-i-=-::::r: -!=... i I --- I ! r---t===+== 1 ' 1 I \. ~ ~ C'- ~ ~ -F ~ l ~- l ~-1 .~ _ t - ~ I i? 1--- §: • ~ ' 1r ft 1 t' ' I • t' 1 ! I . ~ t -. I ~ ~ (~_ i · ' --::::t-- - ' I - t - --+===1 ~ -, k r -\" (. ~ ~ _- ~~ = ~. ~ ~ t ~·r- I t. •" f ~ ff ~ " ~ L{ ~ . ttt~ ~~ { f- ' f.~ , • ~ ~~ : tt*t I t ~ C--~ I . • I I 1 --, ~ I I tt ~ t i i !l \ I . I t · ~ \' ~ t , ., i li f r 1; ~ ~ ~ r~ ~ ~ t i •. ni I t ~ t ~ t ~ t ~)~ h1{ tJ 1 ~J ~ 1 t ! t ti "" ~ (' ~ t ~ f ~ (' t ~ ~ ~ l fo ~ ~ ~' t - . r l 1~· k }. -ir '-t· - ~~ \r l~ 1'It --f ~t t i • r• i ~ f f~ ~,. ~l t' tt _ _ :,_ ~::..i= ; -_:: ! • ~ t! _d: nJ.t f I �~, ,i ' AW,-1 2)_,,,~~~ -- - ~ & ~ J ~ ddr-~~ ~,,._a -d. ~ ~tUm-v-d-i:, it,_, f ~ f ~ ~ -~ ~"6\ :a,) ~ ~ ~ -4c, ~ - ~ ~, ~ . ar~ ~ cd )f.-?, J?1 ' ;ro, ~ I~ ~ n z _ , , ~ ~ t»v #_,;::[ ·ti_,_, ~ lfy ~ CIOY1 ~ s ~ ~ C V ~ ~~~ ~ 4 ~ ~ ~ ~ . , ~ ~~- ~ , ~, ~~ ~ . ; , . , . . ~ _-4;_,r---(!_~} -fu.-t ~ ,-,,,.,,_-;, ~ ~ ~ - t Y J ~~~ 1~ . .!/tr,) Zv....- ·'"t7Le- ~~ ~ -~P'b,--.J 'if ' ~ ' Jul..,,..J!. ( J ' ~ ;._,,._ °"17w 1 ~ , ~ ~7 t' e '4-, "1 ~ o/1-'--,µ_. :-;- , o-f!Jf~ ,Q.,_/._,_...12_ fv~ ~ ~ ._)):,_, ~ d.!~1. ~~ ±,, .en., d ' ~a_,.,y-1.,n~<.urii..= - ~ ,~~ f,-vd- ., a,,.,._,,l, ~ ~-d ti......__.1_ _ ~~ • ~~ ~ - 1 1 ~ - ~ ~ Arv ~ - , ~ ~ o / 4Gb - ~.r-r,d, ~ ~ ~ ~ -e.rr a.r-£-~ ~~ ~ U:.0- I 0u ~ ? ~ r~ ~i : ~-1 ,, V ~ ~<iZd ~fu-,-, , 7z.? ~ ~ ~+~ ~ oV~ . ~ V-w. J_p_-' - ~~ ~ ' S}.duf!~d...i_d_~ ~~ ~ - ~J-- ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~47WV, ~i~ ~ ~ ~ . / ~ a : ± - ~ ~ - . , ~ ~ ~ ~£~, 11 ~ ~-~-1 h:JL- ~ ~-~~ ~ ~ ! ? ~ - - j ~ j ~7lz> -~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~.. ~ Cc4.--~-~ l ~ ~ ~~~, : 11 - z v--(?/ J2_~~ '--J1..;:t ~ rt,~~0 ~---L~ ~ ~~, ~ -1~-~ ~~ J ~, S L _ _ ~ - - ~ -- ~~~~~ry I I ",2l,_diw 1· T · ~~ f -~~~,' r_~ ~ ~-h~~ -& -'hv w.,_,_ /2L, ~ ~ ~~,-~✓~ ~ ~ ~., -~ ~1 tiu.,_r:1-12-~~ - ~ ~ - : - ~ ~ ~ . ~~ i ~ ~ ~ - ~ ~ c , , , ~ 1 ·- ~ ~ ~~ ~ .&2,t,a:t_vt.4.) ~ .~ ~~ ~ _, ~ d,.y - ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ - - - t w ~ ~ ~ t , ; - 0 ~ l~ ~ h '4 II ~4il&,., ���=r 7"• - • . --r-- - I ..-- I ·-- -- - - ~ -• J._ - I ' !I l F-:.i- I - +- ~ --- "" ' - ' ) i i - I t V f 1 ~t } f J r f I :---j::· - - -:t=-===- rt f =r::--==t -- ~ -- -i:=-.;_ J t f - f _f ~ ( f I .:t: --r ._ -;::::. __ 1 . b 1 f _J : ( l " ~- 1 •' a (f) 1 - ~~ 4-3t t ...::. -+- - - l t _f 'P ~ 1 l _f t =f l J eJ. { 1 f : ; ~ l l, ~ ~ ~ [ ~ ~ k j_ J,Jt f 4 4- r f.. ~ ~J 1, ~ -t '- f t j l ✓ 1 t t1f P. ~ ~ ~,J' l hJ t •t+ t L-r 1-1 ~ Irr ~ ~ ~ r r t t } l I _rt ~ t r ti t ~ ~ t f ~ t t .f r t ~ t ~ t r t t r i r t ~t r t ~ , t ti' - '" ~ 1 ~ r r l ~ 1 .·1 1 ~ 1 .·~ J: . r ~1 I I �i ➔ #:e__ -1~ ~ i-¥-,1 bt,_ ~1~~, 'h.rv~ d.d A - I ~ ~ 4--L-~/ ~ ~ ~~~j ~ ~ ~ ' j > , v i Z d . ~ w e . d,i'-"-e--1~.- - f°rr----11-~ 1 ~ .vrvi, 4--//?JA~ f ~,i..,,, , UJ ~ ~ : !)I Ml~~~ i¼/ ~ ~~ ~~ Md ~~ ev ~~~~ ~ ~➔ ~_;~ ~ ,-~~ ~ .L-<J ~ w" i~~~ ~ L~ ,. - a:-h/~ ~11~ y ~ °'1~1 <p~ ~ ~~_fl~~ ~ d_,, -- IF~ J1 r ,J ¥ 1~~ r -- J ~ ~-1.u-d' ..91 <-<-a p ~ ) ~ W7UJ 1 o/ f When I was just a little girl, not very much past four, I had a lovely fairy bower not far from our back door, And no one ever entered there, unless I gave them leave, It was my very, very own, my land of Make Believe. There was a flow'ry little path beyond the garden wall, A lake, an isle, and golden sand, and fairy castle, tall, I was the only princess there, in all this pleasant land, And miniature castles made, upon the shining sand. No errands there, for me to run, no baby to amuse While mother did the dishes,- and I could always choose The things that I liked best to eat, for porridge was unknown, And I could stay down at the lake, 'till I had tired grown. 1- u One day a charming prince rode by my castles in the sand, He stopped and talked with me awhile, he even held my hand; Much finer castles could he build, than any I had made, He painted them with star-dust, the kind that does not fade. Then we would sail our white-gull ships, away out from the shore, Then we would scale the golden steps, right to the castle door, And climb up to the highest tower, and ring the golden bell; The castle was a special place, and we both loved it well. One day when I had older grown, I went out there to play, But lo! the castle, lake, and isle, had vanished quite away! The prince ne'er rode that way again, it makes my sad heart grieve That I can never, never find my land of Make Believe. ~d,~, ~)~' .f~~~ t- i d ~ ~1~~ th-/ I f ) ~ , SJ d:..::/ ~ A.e-lL ~ " ' ~ t:i ~ ~ -~~~~ (,. h-.., ~~J -:,/, LAND OF MAKE BELIEVE t ~ 25~~ �LONELY I am lonely tonight, as the warm Spring rain Falls over the town, and the road below, Alone, in the twilight, with memories fond, Of the dear past in the days long ago. Then I was happy for you were here, Never a worry had I, nor a care, Now I am sad in the twilight gloom, Turning Life's pages back, one by one. I am lonely tonight while the whip-poor-will Calls, and the echoes resound again, List! his mate answers him down in the vale, Calls to her lover out there in the rain. She is so happy for he is near, Never a worry, and never a fear, Of this life's pleasures she takes her fill, Living is sweet to the whip-poor-will. I am lonely tonight, and the shadows fall, Darkening down in a stormy night, Dark, like some soul in its bitter woe, Without a hope, or a guiding light. Nothing is left but a bleak despair, No one to comfort, no one to care, Like a late leaf on an Autumn tree, Waiting till Winter winds set it free. (1955) �� https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/7e5fd21170301d4cea7759bdb8595d5d.pdf 2cb26eb4136cea0e1843c72605cabcc8 PDF Text Text t I I ' t_, • - ~~ st 'f . t- ' -r- - ' I 6 .. l !. I I 1' - I ~ I t- i~ ttt t I - - -; - -- ~ t' L +- • ~c ·~ r ~ 1 ' I : I ' ' ' ·-1 tj } l ' , t\} +- - ' r t- ~ : i ' - ~ I I l, ... t- - l ~ I r ' r~ ~ ~ t,? . j • , I I ,, - ~ ~ ~ T ~i rJ ~ • I l : ff ~.t'i : r~1~',etr t · , l~ It [ . ~ ~• t r t- t,'~~1 ~ f 1- ✓ ~ ~ lt t ~ 4 -~ ~~ . - -r ~~~~ I I 1 . i , {i ' t~ • ' I , ' +- ""::t:: I ... -- - \- . ,\ -~ ~ , �- ' \<? ) I>, I ' I I I I 1=- I rs " - ' .. N 1' 1 ,, ' I ~ I ' I I t1 1~ ~ , ~ t~~J 1J rl-. +tr1t rt-rt1 -i t ~ _ , vV> I - 0-~ I • t . t, t ~~ ,t1 f. K~r. ~.. ~~u~~ ~~~ r t ~ t ,~ ~ ~ ~ ~ t l t r ; . t ~, ~ • ~ f ~ ~ ~ ~ 't i f ~ tl r- ~ ~ , t .,.. [\ ~ ~ j ~ t "~ t ~ J_ t' :, t r f { t ~ ~ t l ~. i ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ L ~ , ,l .,__.~ : --:\-~ i (~ 1'l f t~ ~.. ~t i~. ~11 ~~ ~~ t, f t~~J ~ t- f~ tf Ft ~r1.'~' :--{~ ~~i"~ t t .; t 1 ~- II 1 �....- - ..;. ~ -- ... --t- + - -- -t - i -' ~ ' ... t- • r L . ~r [' ( '\-J £~ t ~ t- -~ I~ I ~ I r'¾ I f- . ~ ' t -t I .. ,t. ..... ~ ~ I • - j~ .. t r ._ .,_ - t- ~ f~ i +- + f, ~ ~ " • t ~ £ ! I : ~ ~ t~' -t t1 ! r ~ - rt Ir -h ti{ t¼rri l . r, ., t f ' ~ .~ ~ r ~ I .,. , + • ' T .. i + -+ ~ ~ -- .- - J r ~ I I f~ ~S= t ~ rr~ , ~i )0 ~ • ._ ~ t ~- r~- \ i 6'. ~. f f J t 'Y ~f~ ~ ~ I ~ ' ~ , C J J- rI • ~ ,t 'f, b\._ ~ I , f I , I I -.. l. ~ ' f Jt r t11 r~ :, t' 1J f t ~ { ~ li t t t ,- ~ ~ ~ ~ i ~ 1 r I ... ~ r 4, f. ( ~ ft ,h f: ~ f.1 t -· •• pt • ~ t ~ . t f. r fJ i ~ r ~ ~ t I ~ ~ i ~ l t~ t r ~ t t l i f t _J r ~ ( ~t Cf r- r f (J ~1 ~ ... - t~Lr1 ~ • ~ r t ! ~ j • ~r I° ( ~ - - r ff~ {1t t "'a 1 ~, \'\ 1 f ? ~ --1 ' "' ~ \ -\ ~\L_ �t r' I:\ p - . !~ tJt~ri·t t,'r ~t ~ ~~ 1~ I ' §' I ~ t' t f I '- ,1 f / I I I t ~ I l I I ~ ~ L I I I i ~ ~ \ l ~ t l t f' ~ t t ~ t tJ l ~ 0 k { f ~ ~ ~l f~ !' ~· I t trsj, }. t~ i .fr r"· r;) ~ "1t ~ ff ~ J~ r t~ ~- ~ J~i r~ 1(1{1~ f Jr f t tj ' l t r- ~' ~~ ~~l rt ~~ � https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/ea0046994f6e9ca961a668e067fc40d3.pdf 03b323179ac345ffe7ac35c7c797309f PDF Text Text SC1IBT~ING ABOUT PAZEL ELINK ~~/ ~ ~ Is{) My life in early childhood was spent int t~c security of loving parents who did all in their power to provide a congenial and influential atmosphere in the home. Mother was brought up in the strict old orthodoxy of the early Presbyterian Chnrch in :Cas Lern Ontario. Wesleyan Methodist home. r,~y father was brought up in a Hence, we were brought up to ~evare the Bible, to shun profanity, which one said was ·"'le rely a crutah for a weak 11ind, and to respect our elders. We we:t·9 not to judge them and think they were eccentric, who did not see eye to eye with us, and whorn we thought a bit queer. A verse l my mother often quoted was "Vengeance is :-Jina, I will repay" saith the Lord. We had a man in our district who poked fun at old crippled; one of these :1ad been hurt in his early twenties, and left with a crippled withe red ha:1d. He also used a cane when he walked. He passed this farmer's house every Sunday on his way to church, and this gave the neighbour an j '1is children an opportunity to make fun o·~ 1.is gait and the way he carried his withe red hand up by his chest. It felt more comfortable up there. The neighbour got a hearty\ la~gh from his older children as they mimicked the dear old man. Several years later the 'a:9er• 5 ot his hand badly mangled in sorie machinery, and was compelled to carry it up near his chest, and held the re by his other harld. reap what we sow. Verily, we "The Mill of God grinds slowly, But it grings exceedingly small."' My own dear father died when I was not yet fifteen fears old. Up until that tine, al thoup;h my mother suffered with arthritis, 1Ye 11ad not known sorrow. Now I could realize with full force what berea,,ement ·neant. re 1)cllious I was bitterly at the thought of G,~d snatching my :ather when we needed him most. I wondered how the sun could possibly shine so brightly, and thebirds could sing so merrily, while I felt so desolate and alone. I wished I too could have died. - �2. "VThen sollle beloved voice that was to you Both sound and sweetness, faileth suddenly Aud silence, against which you dare not cry Aches round you Jj_ ke a strong disease and new- What hope, what help, what ~usi~ will undo That silence of your senses? .....•• Nay none of these! Not friendships sigh ......... My s~hool days in our little school would soon be over and I was r3ady to try my entrance into High School, but ·:men thl s tragedy came, ~,! other was unable to fj_nance m high school education for me, and I, who so greatly longed to bf' a school teacher and Rn author, was forced to go out as a hired girl, where peaple just needed me in the busiest season or where a prospective mother was I biding her time 1 • I worked hard and long for scant wages. I was embi tt.,ered and regrett,~d miserably the poverty which denied llle a good education When I was eighteen years old, I married a boy whom I had kl'lown ::ill 'TIY life al though he was eight years my senior. War 1 anc in the end of De~ember we had five chi 7 dren. Vf~i."'G li e had returned that summer from WorJ_d narried. Down throug·h the years we The oldest was seventeen when the baby was born. Our l-iouse was in a grove of pine, birches, spruce, cedar and poplars. It was a lovely spot. I have many happy memories of my home no:bth of Barwick, along with some very tragic occurances. In 1955 my husband waw killeo ~~ an accident, one of those quick a8cidents that one finds all over the world, and• which the loved ones find difficult to for~et, where desolation settles 1.ike a pall_ on the heart and brain, and where you ::-ecover in slow degree from the shock and horror or it, if you ever do recover. I moved .from the farm which we 1\'ere living on 8.t that time. a year, with the option of buying if tt suited our needs. We lived there We had hot water on tap and many other conveniences that were lackinG in our former\ home. I moved �3. into our village of Barwick, as my children, with the exept.ion of the youngest, were married or working away from home. The youngest was attending schoojb at Fort Frances. I worked as a cook in a timber ~amp with a lady I knew, one w:inter. the summer, I baked in a bake shop in Sioux Narrows. In But as 1 had pernicious anenia for years, and had Bl2 shots every two weeks, I vms obliged, under my doctors orders to come home as there was no doctor in Sioux Narrows. T~en the Bell Telephone bought out our Municipal phone and I was taked on as part-time operator. I liked the work and on days I did not have to go to the office, I di0 day work in Fort Frances. In my spare time in t~e evenings, I completed Grade 11, 12 and 13 Literature ~ram the Board of Edu~ation (lessons by mail) Then a course in Ancient History, also a course in Archeology and one in Wilderness Consehvation. I scribbled poems and rhynes for njfferent occasions and had scribble~s full of things I liked to put in rhyme on paper. While I was taking the by Sigurd Olson, Ely, Minn. I Wilderness Course' I was asked to read s011e books I could not ge:b the'TI in our library in Fort Frances and wrote to Mr. Olson as to where t}iey c0uld be procured. and we corresponded for some ti~e. He wrote imrriediately ne ultim-ately read so~e of my po-ems and urged ;i-ie to get ·.hem publisried in book :'orm, if' it was only that my ch.i..ldren and grand :hildren might have them. He enjoyed the 0nes I wrote on 'Wilderness' and several others which are in my boolt ' Sele1Jti111e Poems and Prose 1 • Mr. Olson• s opinion I valued highly knowing what deep respect is ~iven hirn 'Joth in tl-ie USA an:i in Canada, also in overseas countries. I have read all his books except the last one. About this tirne, some friends of rnine, T' r. and Mrs. Bill Hay of Brandon urged me greatly to let them undertake the publis~ing 0: my poems. After some consideration, I dec~ided to let them have the books I liad scrawled them in. She w1s a receptionis6 in her husband's office, but found time to type off much of this. I spent much time in 3randon with them, and enjoyed their �4. kind hospitality. I had never dreamed t.hat I could ever white anything t ri at was worthy of a place in a book, although I haye had several poems in the 'Toronto Globe' as it was then called. After the first one ---arne out, I had a letter from 'Vm. Dyer the Peace Poet, in Toronto. He compl ~~ented me on it and had µassed it on to his good friend Charles n. D. Roberts ( both now de~easedO and he wrbteto Mr. Dyer and commented on my poem. Told ~e how good it was in all but the last verse and showed me how I could rectify it, and explaining 1vhat to av:oid in writing poetry. I valued this letter, which Mr. Dyer had ·sent on for my perusal, and was amazed that two celebrities would even condescend to notiae the scribblings of a would-be writer. dcat~1. I corresponded with Mr. Dyer unti 1 his The poems that appe ared in th~ 'Globe I ane in my book, which was printed in 1973 when I was seventy-two years old. I was disappointed in the type errors, which are many, in my book, but it has sold well, and is paid for long ago. I 1.1a,re a few left which I rnay get sale for from ti~e to ti~e. I was askerl f'or ;11y philosophy of life. My main belief is in the Bible• which I read through every year, and haye done so for nearly forty years now. I fiMily believe John 3: 16 and since then, He has s:.noothed :ny pathway and the bitter thj 11gs have become sweet. I re'tlernber that we all wi11 stRnd be-'"ore a just God, at the judgement of the just an d bf the unrighteous. I know 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the h,mds of the Living God' so I govern 'TlY life a~cordingly. I an not a Saint but I ar1 accepted of the ~hrist who died for ne, and you w~o love Him wiJl see me sone dqy, where all is hope, joy and peace. This is not a sermon, nor is it philosophy, it is sir:rp1;v Scriyture. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Hazel Clink Description An account of the resource Autobiographical writings by Hazel Clink of Barwick, Ontario, a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnails. These autobiographical writings by Hazel Clink tell the family story of settling in Barwick in 1902. With an increase in population in the area, the first school began, as a small centre for country life. The summary tells that Hazel Clink became a poet and published author. Two transcripts of handwritten notes tell details of Hazel Clink's arriving in the Rainy River District with her family in 1902 from Chicago, to join her uncle’s family homestead at a time when settlers were arriving in Indigenous communities. The writing tells about the land, people, climate, and industry. The first store, hotel, school and church activity are detailed. Hazel Clink shares memories of social gatherings, school, country living, her childhood, family and area history in recollections and poetry. Hazel's life was shaped by the loss of her father, her working life, marriage at 18, death of her husband, and move into town with her children. Hazel was able to complete high school, publish her poetry, and share her philosophy through her writing. The texts include some language that is no longer considered appropriate, as well as discussion of settler-Indigenous relations and sensitive and offensive material. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Shared by consent of family. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hazel Clink Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Barwick Canada - Ontario - Emo https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/4552c6e5ca2f2a00dac26bf93323aca6.mp3 a1fdbff586041cc6c536102e6d5ca9d3 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/4a9137932a5e50b924250e4b2eba1b74.mp3 330c241cfc414cebf87adae2c4ec6c2a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Lillian Wolter Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs. Lillian Wolter. The interview was performed as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. During the interview, Mrs. Wolter discusses working as a school teacher in Nipigon. She taught grades one through eight, was a shop-keeper for a time, and also played the organ and piano for churches and events. She details her experience trying to get a divorce from her husband. In order to do this she had to prove adultery, and she almost lost her job since she had moved in with another man before she was divorced. She also discusses community events in Nipigon and how the school would always host events for all ages. The recording consists of two sides of one cassette tape, available as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource No rights information Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Nipigon Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/9d0e03c1b6a2becead656fbb5a5657aa.mp3 e50cd4d3bbbf71aa1e89d517371f2fc8 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/228f33ad35ca0e96ab89a3645765c26b.mp3 176c26d76985842bd6259dea59e428b2 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/250e2ceb33cd67407f2655792adcd896.pdf 387d2dcde4afa4919f4b5840770071d5 PDF Text Text HERSTORY PROJECT Mrs. Duggan interviewed by Helen Lovekin Q. Mrs. Duggan, can you tell me when you were born? A. Q. A. May 18, 1891. And you have been a lifelong Thunder Bay resident? No. I was from Renfrew County in Eastern Ontario near Ottawa. Q. A. and I lived there until I was 21. What made you come up to Thunder Bay? I came to live here in 1937, prior to that for 21 years I lived in Sc~eiber / and how I came to be in this part of the country_; I went to normal school in North Bay and under a grant that we got we were obliged to teach in the dtstricts instead of the counties. The districts started east of North Bay and so I went to normal in North Bay and I taught near Sudbury for four years and then I came to Schreiber to teach in 1916. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I was born there I was married in 1920 and I lived in Schreiber until 1937. So when you moved to Schreiber the war was on in Europe and Schreiber must have been very much a bush town. No, but it was strictly a railroad town. I recall there were six trains a day at that time. What was it like coming from Eastern Ontario into Schreiber? Well, naturally it was a complete change because in the area where I had lived in Eastern Ontario it was mostly farmland whereas Schreiber was strictly business connected with the railroad. It was an entirely different environment. Were the people there homesteaders there at that time? Not in Schreiber, anyone who lived in Schr.eiber, who had come from the east as the majority had, the men came there because of the railway. There was good work and the pay was good. Naturally they brought their wives and families with them. Q. Instead of getting land grants they lived within a town. A. Yes, the majority owned their own home, not on a _large area of land though, ------just on a lot and a garden. Q. When you came up in 1916 you had had previous experience teaching, how did you have to modify your lessons for the children up here? pletely different atmosphere they were living in. It would be a com- �e ... A. We had the Ontario Curriculum we had to follow and I can't say that it was a great deal different from what it was in other places. The only thing is that my early teaching days before I went to normal school, I was in rural schools where I had the full compliment of children, from grade one to grade eight. That was very difficult. After I went to normal school I always had senior classes and I taught grade seven usually and later grade eight. Q. Did you marry in Schreiber? A. No, I married in my home town in the east but I married a man from Schreiber. A railroad man. Q. The romance was all in Schreiber. What was it like for you to leave everything that you knew and branch off into Northern Ontario? A. Well, it was certainly vecy different in many ways - the customs were different. For one thing the people had more money to spend, there was more social life, although it was a small area. One thing that perhaps was a bit outstanding, the men were by far in the majority so of course the school teachers were rather popular at dances and so on. At least we always had a good time. Us- ually we went out a great deal throughout the week. Q. After you were married were you allowed to go on teaching? A. You didn't have to stop, but I did stop, I don't know why I did. At least I thought I stopped - I resigned - and when we were on our return to Schreiber after our honeymoon, we met a railroad man quite a distance down the line, and he said to me that they were waiting for me to get back there. I asked why and he told me that they wanted me to take the principal 's job because the principal had been sick for quite some time. There was a clergyman in charge of the classroom and he didn't like it and I don't think he was much of a compromise. When I went back , it was the pupil's that I had had in former years and of course they Imew what to expect. There was no trouble with discipline. Q. Was that quite unu~al to have a woma:m as a princip.al? A. Well , it was there. from the eve of time. d,ied. The principal who had been there must have been there He was there for a long time and was there until he At times after he died I was once again replacing the principal after I was married. After the original resident principal died, two principals at least took sick at different times so I replaced them. Q. But you were never given the position officially? A. No, but I didn't want it because I had young children after a few years and I wouldn't have been able to handle it. Q. What sort of social activities were present? �A. Card playing was very popular, in fact I was really bored with having to play cards. If you didn't you were a kind of an outlaw. Afternoon teas were also very popular, in fact many of the ladies had their visiting cards that was usual in those days and then dances occured at least every couple of weeks. Then in the summer there was a lake very close and many people had cottages there, and the lake was a great source of enjoyment there. Q. When you came to Schreiber it was 1916, there were still two more years left in World War I. A. What kind of effect did that war have on a small town? I think I should tell you that in 1918, the year the war ended, that was one of the years that the flu was very prevalent. We had an excellent doctor in Schreiber and there was only one person who died of the flu, but there were very few nurses and schools were closed for a while and we were asked to go on a volunteer basis to different homes especially if the mother was sick and the young children had to be attended to. So we went in fear and trembling and everybody that was strong and husky felt they should do their duty. doctor certainly couldn't have managed without the help. The I recall that the weather was dull and school was closed for about six weeks. In that time we went to various places - the teachers and women without children. I think there were one or two nurses and there were some women who had some nursing experience and they rounded us up and got us going on the project. Q. A. So it was a rather important contribut-ion. Somebody had to do it and after all, we were as able to do it a~~~ody else and we didn't have anyone depending on us as did the people with children. Q. In the First World War was there a lot of activity in the church groups, women's auxiliary etc. towards the war effort? A. Yes, knitting and that type of thing. Making of bandages. I don't recall that I had very much to do with that but then it was perhaps because thankfully _there were others with ,,.more experience along that line. We were quite active ~ practically everything that was put on in a social~· line. There wasn't too much going on socially because it wasn't wise for too many people to be in groups. I do recall one boy caine home from overseas and the doctor had issued an order on account of the flu thatfthere were to be no group meetings. This boy's mother had planned a big party for her son's return from overseas and she was ve-ry indigna.n,t to think that that was interfered. with. The doctor was quite strict about the rule and he was right of course. Q. In your teaching career, what salary did you start off with? �A. You'd be surprised - $JOO a year. Q. This of course would be less than the men would be making? A. I suppose, but there were very few men teachers in those days. No man in his right mind would take on teaching unless he was just going to earn some money and then go on to something else. Because if he planned on getting married how could anyone live on $JOO dollars a year? Q. How did you manage? A. The first year I paid $10 a month board and then I went to a different school in a farm area and I paid seven dollars a month fur three years. Later I got a raise of $325, It seems like an impossible way to live but you have to consider that it wasn't only the teachers who were poorly paid, it meant that nobody was making big wages and what you bought was not as expensive, anything like as expensive ... I remember buying blouses for .2.5¢ or ,50¢ and a young girl who was quite a dressmaker would go and stay at a house for maybe two or three days and do all the sewing for that season and she would probably be paid a dollar a day and room and board. It was all relative. Q. Did the climate affect you in any way? The long winters. A. I did find the winters in Schreiber exceedingly cold. On the way to school, quite often you had to face north and another thing, I had a cold classroom and often we would have to close in the morning because the heat didn't circulate as it should and besides I was on the cold side. This didn't hurt the feelings of the children any. Q. In your early years of marria·ge and having children, had you become quite climatized to Schreiber and Northern Ontario? A. Yes, I got accustomed to it and people's habits were a little different you know. In the east where I came from there were more relatives living in the same area whereas in a place like Schreiber it was mostly a young people's town with ha.r.dly any third or second generations. Naturally the older people preferred to live in the east where the climate was better. Q. You came to Thunder Bay in the '30 's you said. A. Yes, 1937 and that was the time of the Depression. Q. Could you tell me a little about that? A. Personally we never suffered very much from the Depression because of the fact that my husband had steady work, which very few people did have. Railroading is determined on seniority and my husband had enough that he always stood for work but quite frequently he would decide to take a day or a couple of days off and that gave somebody else a chance. The railroad peo:p1e are rather LI. �clanish and also very interested in, and sympathetic towards those who are Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. not able to get along. Did you resume your career? Periodically. I don't know how many times I went back between 1920 and when I moved here, but I was back several times. As I say I was back right after we came from our honeymoon for three months and then I was back several times and then we carne here in '37 and I think about two years later I was at the boarding school for a while, somebody suddenly became sick and I was there replacing. I did go back in '43 for a year down at the East End at a separate school - St. Joseph's. In 1945 my husband died and I went back steadily from then on until 1968. I went to the sanitarium to teach in 1945 - a tuberculosis sanitarium on the outskirts of town - and there were a great many children there, mostly Indian children. The odd white child but not too many. Then the adult Indians were just like children because many of them came from places where :they had no education and many of them I taught to write and to do arithmetic etc. I stayed at the sanitarium for seven and a half years and then I was out on Arthur St. for six months waiting for the build:¢ing of a new school on the Indian reservation. I went there in '53 and I stayed seven years. What was it that made you choose the mission schools in particular? For one thing, I wasn't as young as some of the other teachers, when I taught at the mission school I was a civil servant and the government generally pays better than the separate schools - and of course being a Catholic I couldn't teach in a public school. It was quite attractive to me because by that time my family were all away and I was able to live there due to living quarters. I must say that it paid me in the long run because ever since I left there I have been getting a pension. Aside from the monetary aspects of teaching at the mission, you were there for a good part of your career .. ?Was there something that attracted you to that type of work? Yes, I enjoyed it. I found the Indian children very easy to teach - some of them were more brainy than others - you ,find that every place you go. Some of them were more mischeivous than others too. On the whole, I had wonderful support from the parents - naturally because I was a government representative and nobody interfered with my discipline. I feel that I gave them something that perhaps nobody else was willing to give - nobody was interested.. The �majority of teachers, when they start in a city school they stay there, but I was free to change if I wanted so the - Mr. Mciver who died some years ago was the member of Parliament here and so he told me that this new school was being built with all the modern accomodations and that if I was interested., he would help me get it. got it. I suppo-se my record was fine or else I would.n 't have I was there for quite a few years and the one thing I found when I went there was that many of the Indian people had a defeatist attitude that because they were Indian they couldn't get anywhere. I drilled into the children that anybody of any nationality can get anywhere but it has to be through their own efforts. All you have to do is drive out to Chippewa and see the lovely homes and many of those homes are occupied by some of my former pupils. Q. So there is a great deal of satisfaction? A. Yes, I do feel satisfaction. The chief is a former pupil and so is his wife. They invite me to their different activites etc. I feel that I had a good relati:onship with them and of course it's like everything else, you get the kind of treatment you deserve. If you go out there with the snobby idea that you are so much better than somebody else, you won't get very far. I went there to teach the children and I did it as conscientiously as possible. Q. You sound like a person who has a lot of energy and goes into something with a very open mind. A lot of people who did come up from Southern Ontario into Northern Ontario had a snobby attitude and it could be manifested. more severly in teaching the mission schools. Insofar as women's activities went did you have anything to do with the women's organizati01s? A. You mean the Indian women's organizations? The Indian women were not really well organized. but what we did have were the Girl Guides. Guides - the women to come and start the group. I got the Girl We would have a tea every so often and the children learned how to set a table and I had taken a lot of my own things from my own home out there with me, so I had my tablecloths and my silver and the odd things. I showed them how to use them and serve and I think the children got a lot out of that. They got something out of it and they have shown over the years with - I've been invited to various activities and you certainly can tell that they know how to serve and act like anyone else. I don't take the full credit but I mean they do observe how other people do things and naturally they learn from others. Q. You did belong to the Catholic Women's League did you not? �A. Y.e s. Q. Could you tell me something about that? A. Naturally I had belonged to the Catholic Women's League in a smaller town too, when it was initiated.. Then when I caine here - I think the League started in 1921 in this area - we had a League in Schreiber and then when I came here, I'm sure I wasn't here a year when I was nominated as secretary, no,treasurer of the League. I was on the board for years, and I was on the diocesyn which means a larger area. circle. In the league there is the local group and then a wider I used to attend as a delegate the various conventions. At that time the head of our diocese was North Bay and now we have a Bishop here ~ but then we didn't have a Bishop and I was the delegate appointed to go to conventions but I don't think I waslappointed because I was smarter than anyone else, I went because I had a CPR pass. Q. What was the function of the Catholic Women's League? A. The slogan is "For God and Canada", so we tried to do anything we could to help the clergy. Many people teach catechism and I've done that quite a bit. In a small place like the rieservation, one of our projects was to raise some money by carpeting the ............. but that didn't have anything to do with the C,W.L. that was just one of our projects, that we did with the children. With the C. W.L. we had a hand in the Depression by packing clothes and we got a special rate on the railway and sent the clothing out west to the people who were desperately hard up. During the war, people made bandages and did quite a lot to help the soldiers, especially packing kits and parcels so that they got a treat from home every so ofteu. We had the names of all the boys who belonged to the congregation and everyone of them got a parcel. Those were some of the things done in war time and of course there has been a great deal done in giving burseries and awards to children who otherwise couldn't be able to go on to a higher education. Q. Does the C.W.L. set itself any goals that it wishes to achieve for soci.e ty? For instance, you must have had a lot to do with St. Joseph's Hospital. A. Yes, quite a number of the ladies who are members of the C.W.L. and are on the Auxiliary for St. Joseph's Hospital. and helped with teas etc. Naturally they made contributions Right now the C.W .L. are -very active in the abortion :problem - they are very opposed to that of course, it is against the teachings of the Church and so the C.W.L. are strong in opposition to abortion. In every group or in every tmm there are poor people and the poor are helped. We -, . �have rummage sales and people who rave a lot of children and haven't much money can come and get a whole box of clothes - the clothes might be worth $15 and they would pay a dollar. When I was· on the Indian reservation, the clothes that were left over from a couple of the churches were sent out to me and then we'd have a ten cent sale. We felt that having the people pay a little gave them a little more dignity, than to just say 'here, have this" . There again they would pro~ably get a box full of clothes for a quarter. Q. When you were teaching on the reservation and at the same time you were involved in the C.W.L. did you feel a lot of distance between yourself and the Indian women? A. It's a bit hard to get very close to some, fortunately I taught at the sanitarium previous from going to the Indian reservation and one woman from the reservation was a patient at the sanitarium and I got to know her quite well. She had gone to school in town and when I went to the reservation, I felt that there was somebody I knew and her husband was very, very good as far as any repairs or anything like that, I just had to send someone to bring him overrto look at the problem. pairing anything. I am completely useless when it comes to re- One particular item I always noticed about him, he never came to the school alone, he always brought one or two of his children with him. That was for my protection because there were neighbors around who didn't have the best thoughts and no way would he expose me to their criticism. I admired him so much for doing that, I didn't ask him to do that, I never told him that I noticed it, but I certainly had a great deal of admiration for him. He was a lot younger than I was and he and his wife used to come over in the evening to the school and he was very brilliant -in mathematics and I would get him to do rational problems on the blackboard, which I knew he enjoyed doing. Q. What was his wife like? Were you close at all? A. I was fairly close to the wife and she used to do my hair. nice person and ve-;cy socially inclined and friendly. entertainment at Christmas .... ~ ...... then put an imitation flame on it. She was a very We had a beautiful We covered the barrels with red and The people really enjoyed our Christmas pariies and another thing about the Parks Board, Mr. Art Widinol? especially, he was in charge of the Parks Board at the time and he used to bring the treats for everybody, They came from Squaw Bay, from that school and our own, we had two schools in the mission. �Q. How much co-operation was there between the women - you told me about Schreiber and about how the women managed to ward off the flu epidemic by the healthy ones taking care of the sick, you mentioned working with the C. W. L. and you mentioned you worked as a teacher/in the reservation. Would you have wished for more determined co-operation? A. No, I really was surprised by the amount of co-operation. Sometimes - Indian women won't push themselves - so sometimes you might have to suggest, but they were ver:y willing. They would have thier children dressed the way I want etc., so no, I can't say that I ever lacked help. Q. The C. W.L. was quite a unified group? A. Yes. We al.so had a group that would put on skits every so often. It took a lot less time to put on a skit than to put on a real play so often for our purposes we would use skits. al. but many laughs. We would have a skit with vecy little rehears- Certainly were given great encouragement and always asked to come back for more. Q. You found lots of avenues to explore. A. Yes, perhaps I should tell you about the boy when I was at St. Joseph's Boarding School, after I left the reservation. In 1960 I thought that well, I was getting on in years and I really tire, but the sisters had been asking me to go to St. Joseph's Boarding School on account of my long connection with the Indians. They knew I would understand the children. I went and stayed there eight years after I was supposed to retire, every year the Westfort Kiwanis in order to encourage children, and make them aware of the forest, they offered a prize for the best piece of art that showed how to prote·a t the forest. Children of all the schools were asked to co-operate so at the school they had never heard of that before, so I talked to my superior about it and she agreed. We did enter the competition and out of over 2,900 entrants, one was chosen aqthe best. The name of the chUd who did it and the school he attended was on the back and it was not visible to the judges so nobody knew whose work::.it was. The next day I had a call from a man who bel.tnged to the Kiwanis and he told me that one of my pupils won the prize. The boy had drawn a man sitting, and protecting the little animals and he did an excellent job and so they chose that. the Exi bition. The prize was a trip with an adult to Toronto and I was the adult. This boy came from a reservation way up by Armstrong and he was the eldest of a very large family and it just didn't seem the thing to ~~o. For some reason they decided that if he was going to get �very much out of the Exhibition, that I should go with him. They phoned and asked me if I would go and I said that if it was going to be for his welfare I '11 go. Mr. Badani was our member at the time. I wrote to him because I was working for the Federal Government, and I told him what the situation was and the conditions and he alerted somebody in Toronto and next to the Queen, we had the best service. We were at the Exhibtion, everything was handed to us, we· stayed at the King Edward Hotel, we had our pictures taken, and we were on T. V. there. We got plenty of publicity and it was an achievement which I am sure made the Indian children aware of their own potentialities. r,. did something for the whole district, to Imow that one of them could do that. Q. Do you think that women's roles in society have changed very much, and if so do you think that the changes were for the better or for the worse? A. They've certainly changed and of course women are better educated now than when I was growing up. On the other hand, if you judge by results, I think that the women of fifty years ago produced better children, more responsible children. Q. But surely that is not their only function - to produce children. A. No, I don't mean that but if you were to judge them that way I think that well, discipline has changed and that has an awful lot to do with the way the child turns out. I think many women of today are doing an excellent job soc- ially, I don't mean in society, I mean in trying to benefit the underdog. The underpriviledged etc. , I think the younger women are to be greatly admired for the way that they really are trying. Naturally you are going to find a certain number who are self-centered, there will always be that. I think on the wh.ole, women a.re very conscious of their obligation to their fellow men. Q. That is refreshing to hear. Quite often, we have received very negative com- ments as to how young women are today. Circumstances have changed. Criticism of working mothers for .e xample, young women can't afford to stay home if they a.re able to work. A. I think the majority of older people have a tendency to talk about the good old days. I've lived a good many yea.rs and the good old days weren't so good at all. Women naturally didn't get out and do things as today but you see, they didn't have the equipment in the home to make things any easier for them. It took them all day to do their work. I have no patience with women �who spend their afternoons in the beer parlor. But I think that is a minority. When I see my own daughters, they '11 drive their children here, and drive them there, so that they can take part in worthwhile activities and other women are doing the same thing. There are a great many women who are giving a great deaJ. of time to, volunteer work. That certainly is very commendable I think. I do find that it is generaJ.ly older women who sit back and won't do anything, of course you have lots of time to criticize then. Criticism should be con-- structive and if you can see that things should be different why not go and suggest that you will have time and give them help to do it? Q. If you were to become involved as a young woman in a project right now, in something in society right now, what would you like to do? A. As long as it wasn't work - I'm not fond of work. brains and I like to make people happy. I like to work with my rhere are a lot of serious things in this world and I think if you can do something to make people happy that's good. Some women have a pretty tough time, they work aJ.l day and perhaps work at home and often don't get any co-operation, I think that if I had any choice it would be entertainment - but it wouldn't cost anything to produce or attend. Q. Did you know that there was a play just formed recently and it was an aJ.1femaJ.e play and aJ.1-femaJ.e audience as well. 'rhat was just two weeks ago. It was a group of women who had just decided to do something, and I think they are doing it again in August. A. We just recently had the C.W.L. convention here and I was one of the characters and it was really just a show of hats but they introduced me as an 87 year old. I feel that I am young at heart - everybody has pains and aches whether you are young or not so what is the use of talking about them if somebody else has them too. I think that senior citizens today never had. it so good. It annoys me to hear them say that they don't get anything for this or that. There is plenty funded to senior citizens to live on if they are not spendthrifts and foolish with their money. As far as income for senior citizens is concerned, you have to realize whose pocket it's coming from - my children and grandchildren are paying for the comfort that I have here. children and grandchildren are doing the same thing. Everybody else's All you have to do is hear of conditions in other countries and think how fortunate we are. pension is $145 monthly The - they say that the basic salary should be about $300 but you can apply for increases and then of course the rent sidized buildings is geared on income. in these sub- After all, if you have reached retire- ID . �ment age and have never saved any money, you 're not going to start saving it after that either. You take the wages in the last twenty yea:rs or so, they've been good and surely people of 65 must have something ahead of them. My parents had to live without any old age pension and they had to save for their old age. If they are absolutely irresponsible with their money well than naturally the cheque isn't going to last long. Thank you for talking with us. \t. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Mary Erne Duggan Description An account of the resource An oral history interview done by Helen Lovekin with Mrs. Mary Erne (Maher) Duggan in Schreiber. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. The interview uses language that may no longer be considered appropriate, and discusses the schooling of Indigenous children. In this interview, Mary Erne Duggan reflects on her life and career. She was born in 1891 in Renfrew County, and moved to Schreiber in 1916 as a teacher. She married in 1920 and had children, continuing to teach occasionally after that. She moved from Schreiber to live in Thunder Bay from 1937-1968. In 1945, her husband died and she maintained her career in education. The interview focusses on Mrs. Duggan's teaching and the cultural changes she witnessed through her career. She taught in schools in North Bay, near Sudbury, in Schreiber, and in Thunder Bay at the Sanitorium, the Mission School (1953-1960), and St. Joseph's Residential School (1960-1968). In her interview, Mary Erne Duggan reflects on WWI, the flu epidemic of 1918, the Depression, and WWII, and her identities as a teacher and as a member of the Catholic Women's League. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Schreiber Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Interview is released with permission of Mary Clare Massicotte, granddaughter. https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/1690071e6b95bcd824a9769e450c4549.mp3 1247d40a046f7a13647619b30603b6cb https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/a8bfe6fa8bb733add91208fa7fe85f9d.mp3 e5dc5c3bb17141deb98c760a67343d23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Maryon Kantaroff Description An account of the resource An oral history record from artist and women's advocate, Maryon Kantaroff. The presentation is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The tape records a presentation by Maryon Kantaroff at the Northwestern Women's Conference, April 6th 1973. Maryon shares that women’s movements have the potential to change relationships with others and with oneself. Maryon talks about radical feminism in relation to selflessness, and the importance of speaking up for oneself as a woman. The presentation recants her personal experience in joining the Canadian Women’s Movement and consciousness for camaraderie. The talk is a critical look at the history of social oppression and the power patriarchies have to shape identity. Tracing significant historical events through her discussion of gender, sexuality, religion and culture, the talk by Maryon emphasizes the importance for women to work together for widespread cultural change. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-04-06 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/eb7afccfaf79f30f6fd125d4af1bf2b2.mp3 1f2c833c80ad77ccb16be0a33230181e https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/25da6b29fe075ca90c6d712ceedc77df.mp3 7d9f56703e8647b1a9bc5fac36193844 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Jean Holyk Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Released form signed (Alphabetical list says Texts not Found) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mrs. Jean Holyk in Thunder Bay. The interview is a part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of two sides of a cassette tape, available here as two MP3 files. The discussion joins an ongoing conversation in two parts. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) A reflective conversation with Jean Holyk about Ukrainian women’s history, Ukrainian community in Thunder Bay and women’s rights and equality with a focus on the importance of education, culture and advocacy. The discussion also talks about immigration, Ukrainian history and the social networks for women and their families through the Depression, World War II and integration into community. Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/cc95d3a6aed99080c47f1f44758a89aa.mp3 4f7a3eb1f17bef36fdafa2def7e44377 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/d038e100d90a8e60e75ef8402197634f.mp3 accb5b5a4e2fab9e49efd342aa2328e3 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/1119fddeda4826b7ce1c5516866abb3b.mp3 25c30a725aec5d09169d1d0e2f1d04e3 https://digitalcollections.lakeheadu.ca/files/original/d38dc9d8b9996fba2635845f4a1e9671.pdf d8de4ce33a011e3636dcd9c33d32c6d5 PDF Text Text Ksenia Dubinsky Karen Dubinsky, interviewer. Inter.: K.S.: I'm going to start off by asking you what you felt like when you arrived in Canada. First time I come to ... First time I come to St. John - New Year Day in 28, New Year Day in the morning. We eat Breakfast and we going to the larlming and that. After that we coming to .. I don't know what place. Then we spent lots of time in the office with paper and everything because it's not one person coming. And I coming in a boat called Mount Rose(?) , English boat (Mount Rose)? In war time that Mount Rose going to .......... and I watch him because German destroyed that. Yhh. I hear that. In fact that day what happened to that boat. You know. In 42. And after that we spend lots of time in that office before x everything else. After that we going to some place. I don"t know what place because it's hard. You don't know nothing. And we stayed to wait. One time for another train - coming in a train. We wait for other train so long.w After we going. And I see Canada. And that make me scared because I see bush and I see big big mountain. Something like that. And that scare me because I coming from really nice place - like Saskatehewan - this (was) really nicer because we got bushes and lots of villages and (the) villages got lots of trees. Beautiful, you know. Something else. And that make me scared. Really scared. And I believe that after that we come into Toronto and I see people through the window, through the train window, you know. Stopped. Just looking. I see nice. Nice. Lomk to me like better. Before I don't know places. I od xx don't 1now nothing. Inter : ~:i~e,im•Mtl!llltD4'1 f'l' Iie!■■..e s~ffJ;JI~c,iz~2t~o e,-.-c .e:;e=;a,..~~-=•G•·iit:t. K.S.: Inter: huh? You took the train up from Toronto to Fort William? K.S. ......... Aftert hat we coming to Fort William You took the train up ... Yes. We going through. And I don't know what (where) we going. We going. Train take us. We got piece of paper. Everybody got piece of paper, address and everything right here ... your address, your name and what (where) you stopped . . . . Because we don't know ·-nothing to speak. We don't know nothing ... ! guess we passed Port Arthur and someone say pretty soon we coming to Fort William. No man coming who's working on the train and say, we coming to Fort William. I think maybe we go 'nother hundred or thousand miles. How (did) I know. And I was think I · got something to eat. I no got much because I no got no money. I no buy nothing. And I no got. Everybody got some parcel in the new year. Some peoP.le give to people parcel. Something. Some candy, something. Some people give to some. Nobody give to me nothing. I no get nothing. I no got money. Got nothing. Some lady got something. I just think - one man, he travelled from Russia. And he's give me some, I remember, he's give me cheese, and I like cheese. Some people no see cheese in the old country . �That's all. You know. Got that system. And I live little bit in the big city. I know. I eat and I liked cheese very much. And he's given me cheese and something. And man coming, that who's working on the train and say to me, and take my hands and say "Come in, that's Fort William." And I coming to Fort William. I coming. He's take me to the station. He coming and say, "sit down here, and o.k., I sit down. And after woman coming and looked in my office and say, "come in". Take my suitcase and take me to that ... to that place. I coming to MacMillan Street, 328, - I coming early in the morning. It's early in the morning. I coming here and some girl going to Murillo, That woman say, if you going to Murillo, come on with me, We going too, I take you to the station. And asked that people, that people take me That people give me eat, Reep me, give me everything and that people say yes. And I no see that people xxx ... I see maybe that man. He's married to my cousin what I show you and say it's here, our son, and he's married to my cousin_and he's in another village and I don't know him. he's an older man that family, that people say yes .... And that's all. I stayed about two, three weeks. And after I asked that people, I see he's working. I say right away I liked to find some kind of job. I can't stay (while) somebody works. You know. It's extra some money. And I get job. First time I get job in Westfort. Ukrainian people. He's from Russia and she's from, Polish woman from Poland . . . . Both talking Ukrainian and some .. and I find, somebody find it ... that going for $20.00 for month. Inter-What kind of job? K.D. In a house. Inter-What, cooking? K.D. Working in a house.Just working in a house with that woman. And I working three weeks. And that was when we got with us Peter, that nice young boy, in Toronto. Because I coming to his father, and he's already here. And he's coming and say to me, if you want, we got better job for you. Not better job. Just little more money. Cloer. You closer to us. Because less work and more pay ... It's right by the bridge on Simpson Street. It's closer here. And he say that, if you want $25.00 ... his house ... uh, wife sick in Toronto hospital, Toronto, she sick in the head. And he's got three children, one just 9 months and three boys bigger -one going to school, and one ' just little one. I say $5.00 more. That's o.k. It's o.k. I quit. Andthat woman say to me, Renia don't go. You know. It's $5.00 nothing. Look at you take everything for your, you know, just taking our house in your hands. And we working, the two of us. We got two children and we got four women and her husband. And four roomers. And two of us. And she just not too, - I think at that time she pregnant. And she want somebody. And she like me right away.She like me. And she say, "why you go because you be sorry." You see. Too hard. And you know it's $5.00. $5.00 more. She think oh that's nothing. Lots of dollar in Canada. Yah, she say, $5.00, it's nothing. Lots of dollar in Canada. And you know, we here, two of us, and if you go(ing) (there), you need to do everything. I say, it's still $5.00. Inter: This man wanted you to move in.to his house. K.D. And I'm going working for that man. He's pay me ,$25.00. I working three months, and in three months, I ~ that. Because every time I coming home and I say, I don't know what that man mean, and he everything think, "god damn, son of a bitch". �-:r And I no understand those words, what that mean. -& coming home I say, home, because, what else? I coming home, I say, that, that woman say to me, listen, leave that that everything. And I say, he says something, he want business. What's that mean, business? And he want business, and she saying, his wife sold before, wood liquor. Maybe he wants you to make the same thing. Wood liquor, or maybe, like, something else. Leave that and that's all. I just left one day, and another day, woman came from Port Arthur. Big car. Nice woman. Talking Ukrainian. Born here. Canadian woman. And say, I hear you know how to cook. I say yes, I know how (to) cook. Becaus~ I know cooking. Cooking. Lots of cooking, I know. Cooking, old country. Really good. No just something. And she say, I give you $35.00, if you going to my restaurant and cooking, with my husband. And I help, and we got girl and everything. Mostly you working with my husband. He show you everything. And you sleep with us and everything. I'm say, "pretty good". You know. $35.00. And I going to that. And this woman, what I coming to, this people, that people expecting - that woman, expecting baby. I say .. ? •. She say she's going to hospital. That time not everybody going to hospital. She saying she going. I say, if something happen, I coming home and stayed here and helping because I no paying to that people nothing, and I just think it's something for me, to do something for that people too. And one morning, that one coming, early in the morning, and say, you coming home or not, because, He say, are you coming, and I say yes. I going. And I working in that, and after, I coming home, and stayed home a few weeks, and aftershe's coming help, eh, going back to work, I going cook again, not same. I going to another. And meet Didi. And married. Right away. That's why is Linda. And Karen too. (Refers to her granddaughters)(Means they should get married too~ Inter:(Karen) Not me. K.D. Not me. That's right. And we married. And Didi going to bush. A few weeks. So I think he's going to bush. In the bush, no camp. No nothing. He's going with xkxHH few people to build camp• and everything else and xkiHgx saying, "I write you and you coming and working, like cookee''. You know those people not called 'waiters' (but) 'cookees', you know. Inter: Where did you live? K.D. With Didi? ~When you first got married? We lived in the same house. And after(wards), that woman started something. I don't know. Started (to) make trouble. She saying something. She saying something. It's not right anyway. ?o today, anyway. I don't know nothing about that. And she saying I took to her husband. ~About old country. That wife. She lived in the old country. (She was) my cousin. You believe me now. I no talk. Because I say I coming here. It's not my business. And she talk. She give me her· new coat if I going to work. She give me everything. How (did) I mix with something crazy like that? It's not my business. My cousin,~~~ husband ~in the old country and he's married here. He's got one baby, another coming. I would be crazy if I do that. And ~he started that. I moved from that house. I no do nothing. I don't know nothing. I just ... and she say, yes. She hear me talking. I say, no, it's not right to (until) today. I would like to see her today. You know, because I just thinking that I owe to these people something. I go lived. (there) And they be good to me and everything el~!e \N And, we married, and going to bush. And working to bush. ~ months. In March time, we working to winter (through the winter). In March time, we coming home, and take (bought) that restaurant. And stayed in that restaurant ten years. In one room. Five people. Five of us. We stayed in a little room. (Beds) That one big one. One small one. Little table. And something else and something else. And I got dress right on the wall (hung) and coat, and something like that, because nothing else. And coming that depression. That depression coming. We take restaurant in '28, - in '29. Because I coming '28 and married '28 and in '29 in spring time, 3rd of March, we take restaurant. �We started to working ready restaurant in the 3rd of March. And we can't make one copper, - we can't make money nothing. Because meal coming to 20¢ and you can't pay rent because you no got no money and Didi going to Murphy and say we can't pay rent and we want sell that. And Mr. Murphy say, "don't do that -wµat (why) you going? Who asked you for rent?'' Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D . You rented the restaurant? Yes. Yes. And you lived in back of it. Yes. We got kitchen and little room. 1YRu know. Kitchen here room here, big one, and livi hg\ room on the other side of the kitchen. And we lived in that. And we got kitchen. We got everything you know. And, because we lived so poor. Because in one room. After all, foutr people, three kids and I slept in one bed. Not too fun. And we stayed until '27 like that. '37. And '37 we 1IIBlllli: built house on Alexander Street, and we moved in war time. And we moved. Still we stayed in the restaurant to '39. In '39, first of April, we sell that restaurant. And we no got no money because we build house. And maybe we make little money from fifty. '35 come a little better because that depression coming. That Bennett Government. And so poor people. So poor everybody. And after that, this little passed, and we made a little money and we bought that lot and built that house and moved to that house. That house not finished. And we just moved. Finished the house. Everything. Just inside not (finished). We moved there. And we no .. ? .. no money and Didi no working. And what we do? And Didi got some job on highway. He working on the highway, come summer. He started working on the highway on Nipigon (highway). And after he's working twelve year in the bush. And after war coming. People started asking, who's going to Canada Car working (to work)? And plane because Canada Car made planes for the war. And somebody want going. Married man, go to school, he got $12.00 for week paying for that and single man $9.00 for week. Yes. People here in Port Arthur started. That people who started that elevators. People built lots and lots of elevators. I don't know why. Some boat elevator. For some time. You know. Not for axkex every time. And lots of people coming to Fort William. And I put, in that store what we got that store in the front, I put four beds ~ I put two people in one bed. Two people. Four. Eight people. Or ten people. Upstairs, five people. Something I put in the house for .. t f i~l eople besides us. Trapped in that store. . . ? . . dining Inter: That was because people were moving here to work. K.D. People coming here to work and people needed some place to live. And I take 10 people to eat in my house. 10 people. And pay me $30.00 room and board. 10 people. I make $300.00 for month. You know. A family from that will eat. I washed for that people, ironed, and made meals. Three meals. If I not make meal, it's because everybody go to work and supper, good supper. and lunch. Everybody got pail, lunch, and I give that everything. And that time, and Didi started school. He's going to vocational\ And for ~three months, coming three, for six weeks, I forget how come that. That school be started and finished. And he's finished that school. And people, somebody saying, government saying, no, still no job in Canada Car. Somebody want to leave that and going to work, some other places for a little more money, �It's O.K. If somebody wants to stay longer, we'll be paying (refers to the school, I believe) and after if some job coming 1 we give you a job. And Didi stayed longer. Didi no going no place. Inter: He stayed at school. K.D. Inter: $12.00. It's helping, you know. He's make $48.00 for four weeks. And I make $300.00. I maybe spend $200.00 and we eat and everything else and still I make $100.00, clear money .. You know . . . And four people not eat. 10 people eat, you know. And I got for Finn people at that time. I work. Were you running the store? K.D. No. I got chickens. I got garden. I do that everything. Everything. And I believe at that time I buy a machine. (I believe she refers to a washing machine at this point.) And still we no got no - no just toilet, in the house. No bathtubs. No nothing. And people coming. Everybody washed face : here. I breakfast make here for 10 people. Breakfast. And people washed face right here, in the kitchen because nothing else. And that's eat he~e. And use pail. And going to work. And after, people move, I finished everything. Didi going to school. And I stayed with kids. And get kids. And it's coming '40, '41, something like that, you know, before that, peoplehworking in the bush. Working on the highway. And, after that, we started working in the Canada Car, and we got, make little money, and we know, war coming today, tomorrow started to army, we no got nothing. And we build that house, and thinking, we build that house,you know, and that corner store and everything. We just built for store. We just thinking right away, we built house. We make a little store. Because what we doing. Didi older, and he's not working no place. Because we stayed in that restaurant ten years. And after this and that. And there's nothing else. We just thinking ... ? .... And uh, after that, this coming later. I say, it's o.k. We got little money. We start a store. And I started that store. Didi still working. I started that store. Still I today not talking very good. I today no understand very good . . . ? .. First time, I make little. I make little money. Not much. They tell me. Did you bring a cheque? I no cash that cheque. I got my own money. Because I got few people in the room. And I got that store. I make that what we eat and what we need for every day. I got my own for that everything. Because I know one time Didi coming to work and foreman coming to him and ask him, hey, Mr. Dubinski, what you do with cheque? Your cheque. Six months already your cheqqe not coming back. And he's coming home and say, "go and cash that cheque". Because we got trouble and that coming and ask why he no cash it. And that's all. After that, DIDI, after a while, Didi changed everything. And Didi so good, you know, he's got even that piece of paper. He's so good on the job. You ~see that. And war stopped. And have to change from .... bomb to buses. In Canada Car. You know. And Didi started working on the buses. He's working on the buees year or maybe more, or something. I don't know. And that's all. And we no got so sweet. We got so sour everything. Because we working so hard. Now look my hands just look like hands, and my hands just like nothing. And my hands, everything look o.k. And something, yesterday, I was sewing. I can't sew. I sewing. I push here under machine. I need this one to push little bit. Pull little bit material and I can't hit that one. (Demonstrates on sewing machine).! just like catching, catching, catching and that machine, something happen. I can't do. I say, "oh, oh". And that's my life like that coming. And after we bought this, and after Wally (son) going to school, Sonny finished, and Lydia want going for teacher to North Bay because we no got in thaqtime here. She want going to North Bay. I say no. You can't. Because we no got no money. Wally going and you can't. And Wariy going by himself help because he's working, for that and everything. And we say no, you can't. Wally's making little and too, going to school, going to work. �Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Was that because, he was a man and- she was a woman, or it's just because he came first in the family? What? The reason Wally went instead of Lydia. No. No. Because. No. Because Wally liked to going and Lydia, after that, Lydia wanted to go. And we no got no money. So it's just because she came after him. Yah. Yes. And after that she's going to work and she' make a little money. And started K~xkbg talking and saying, it's coming little different, everything and she's going away. And after she's going to work, to working, and she no spend mo~8y and she say she's going to, I'm a little scared. I just thinking that she no passed and she spend money, and spend time. I just thinking about that. And not coming after all. Not coming too bad. Not coming too bad because she's finished and coming and now working ready 20years (at the age of 20), After20 years, then she married ... In fact, on August 30. She's got married on August 30 .. Tape I Side II Inter: During the depression, did you, did the different ethnic groups mix with eath other much? Or did the Ukrainian people stick together, the Italians stick together? K.D. Same like now. I don't know. Yes, People stick. It's not because (of the) depression. Inter: Well I mean at that time permod. \~\'<:> ,·,I.\\\.\. ~\~\~ \I\ ' "-\ K.D. And you -know why. Because people can hardly mix if we can't talk one to another one. You know, when I working at that restaurant. To one year, I just, one year in Canada, and I working in the dining room. Boss. I'm boss. Even if somebody help me. You know I'm boss and I no understand nothing. I can't talk. I can't even write order from the man who's know how order and something like that. Because every day something else. Didi make it (for) me. He's write everything what we got today. And lots of time I no understand what's that mean.I'm saying it's O.K. if Russian, Ukrainian, Polish coming. I understand him. And if somebody else come, and want something, lots of time I no understand. And it's hard for me. And I worked in the dining room in the front. Didi working in the kitchen. I working in the front. Lots of time I come to kitchen. I say, "where's my order?"' I give you this one first, and after I give you this second, and third one. I got this one. I give you that first one, third one, and he give me that one, you know, that one. Because he no going He say because you ho going to bring me eat from the other room. You know, you got little ice box, you know. Nobody got in that time freezer, fridge or something like that. I don't know. What people got, I don't know nothing. And we got lots of time something like that. (Like the situation she described.) Even now. Talking with Mrs. who washing. She speak all different languages. Because lots of time she's coming. ~he's got nothing to\-{do. Coming to~~r Elace. And½~ be sick, she help~~ She bring soup, and asking, what you want. Second, what you want to eat. He saying something and she no understand. And she tell me "I don't know what he wants". And I going to him. I understQ-d. "Oh, I don't know what to do. I going to my husband. " I say, go and ask him, because I don't know what you want. ae Inter: Didi understood English, then. That happened to a lot of immigrant women, when they came over. Their husbands would learn how to speak English because of their job and their kids would learn becasue of school and usually it was only the women. �K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: ~.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.B. Knter: That's true. And one time. And no talking. And don't know nothing. That is speak both sides and across the road, Ukrainian~~0 tri'd here,.we~~ Italian, or somebody else, you know. Here, Italian, here Italian, here Italian, - I going to Italian church, I going all over. Ineed Italian because I'm Italian. I talk Italian. I no going. I no working. Corning with husband, or corning to husband. Husband going first, and after he's make a little money and bring wife and kids or sornethiJng. And woman, and woman don't know nothing. Don't know nothilng. That must have been really lonely. Yah, it's really hard. It's really sornethitng. I live in that hard (times) everything. I'm really passed that everything. You know. First time, I think I, man say, "pork, steak and eggs". He's want to eat pork, steak and eggs.It's my best meal. I just saying now. I just figure. It's .. ?: .meal, what you eat. In that time, poor people, You know how people (were) hungry. People eat. You give six pieces of bread. Eat that and asking more. You see what I mean. And he say, "steak ,-pork, steak and eggs". Two eggs and piece of steak lik~ this one. And he's got really something to eat. You know. And I know we going for that, 'pork, steak and eggs'. Two eggs, you know, and that steak. And three of us going to ask him what he wanted. Because Miss? asking first, .... ? ..... How many people could afford to eat in restaurants? What you mean? How many people? Well I would think that during the depression, most people couldn' afford (it). They would rather stay home. People can't eat home because he's not ... Can't eat home. Gouvernrnent helping city. Helping to poor people who got nothing to eat. You know how much people got for one week's ... no government ... it's city, -ehat we calling relief or ... We calling in that time relief. You know how much people got for week? $1.75 What for everything? Or just ... For one week for you to use it. What you doing. So it was cheaper to eat in a restaurant? No it was not cheaper. Got piece of paper exactly like I show you. Here. This paper. Piece of paper and say $1.75 and if you get that, few papers from city, you paying that to house, to store or something because it's city .. It's like Chapples, something. And that man he's got one meal paid, and 'nether meal he's got credit. And he eat just two meal. No more coffee. No more coffee. And he's eat home. Who's want (to cook his meal)? At that time he went home, you couldn't afford woman to make work. He's no got no home. He live in a room. Who's got it for him to make for $1.75 for him meal and need a little fat and salt and everything, else, you know. He would give you the ticket. UH huh. And it's like paying for it. s K.D. Yes. Just bring it Monday that piece of paper. He's going to city hall to get that. To city hall. To police station or something. And he get that piece of paper. And you punch it. You got cards. And still I got cards. And you punch it for him meal. 25¢ you got two 25¢, two 30¢. ~@jj ~. And you punching him ticket. i (\ y "IA" t,·c.ke..+-, t �Anyway. He's coming another time (to) eat, and he's got 25¢ saved and still we got lots of people to today. That people. Lots of people. Ready die. Old people. And we lost that people. We sell restaurant. We lost that people. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D.: Inter: K.D. You gave a lot of people free meals? You know if you give him one meal. He's coming before 12:00, - then people ready coming for dinner, you know. And you give that meal for that people. And he eat one meal. And he's got ready 25¢. Maybe you just take that one day 20¢. Because he got meal. 20¢, 25¢, 30¢. Some days we make chicken, chicken, you know. And I just take chicken, maybe, maybe sometime I just say, I believe it's 35¢, you know. Poor people no take chicken. Just hamburger, sausages, stew, something like that for 20¢ . . . . ? ... He got soup ... I no got (She's searching through her cupboards for a bowl.) two times bigger than this one. Because it's(not) same dishes. That's small one. And lots of time some men asking, "oh, soup so good, please you give me 'nother bowl." Your profit ready gone. You make just one copper. And what you do? And he eat. We give three pieces of bread rye and three pieces of bread, white one. He eat first time - after I find out that - he eat first time that rye, then say, "oh, I like rye bread". "You got more rye bread?" He saying, you know. Like now people count that everythilng._ Not that time. And you bring him three more rye bread, three more rye bread and you coming back. No bread. No white. No rye. He eat all because he's hungry. You know. And people eat and he's not. He got no good meal. Maybe he's coming after for supper, and after supper, I pring a cup of coffee and you believe me, ...... ? ................. 10¢ and he say, "please give me another because .. another cup of coffee". It's 10¢. That .. 3, 4 buns cost 4¢ and two cups of coffee and your profit, everything going for 10¢. What did you make? Nothing. Nothing. Did you .. ? We work for nothing. Ten years for nothing. Your family didn't have to go on relief though? No. You always had enough to eat? . ................... ? ........................... . After Christmas, New Year and that time was so hard because so (few) people working and who's not working, that people coming just with that 35¢ relief and that rest on credit. What you do? You can't speak and yo~~st say, I going try someplace to work~ Maybe I going to work. ' ' . going to Port Arthur. I go too (reminisces) Who's that in Port Arthur? And he's coming home and say Hurry up. Push my ~~,~\ and everything else because I got job. How that job? How that coming? Wash. Hurry. Hurry up because I going to work tonight. How far you going? He's telling me on highway, you know how far your father("s) came (is) - He's going to that highway. $50.00 a month. Cook. $50.00 a month. He leave me not much wood under house. You know. Not much wood. Not much money. Three kids. And Lydia just born. Leave for few months. Two months. Month , and a half. I don't know. And he's going. With Joseph, my dog. And he's put in the kitchen some kind of curtains, drapes or something. I put up blanket and just make a fire in the kitchen and not in the dining room. Because in the dining room we got different. And my friend. Most ladies saying my friend because he's in my place and he bring his family lots of times. And we ask him for (sand)? and he say, no, no ...... and this and that ... and .......... . and need to split the wood and got three kids, Sammy, not three, and Lydia just two. Sammy exactly like that month. Today, give to that Susie, third one. You see what I mean? And he's going to that back yard and split that wood and bring me full kitchen . .... ? ... (he hauled)? that wood. He's not rich too because it's nobody rich. And few days, it's coming few days more and wood would be gone. What I do? And coming another my friend to my place and I talk to him and he's coming and say he's no got no Always have. �one cent.iH He coming from the farm. He just thinking maybe he's get from us money. And I say I no got no money. I can't give you. I got everything else in the house. I got milk. Milkman bring it and bread I got. I got meat. I no hungry. Family. No money. And he say I going to order wood for you in the wood yard. We got wood yard not too far from us, you know. I say I no got no money. I can't pay. And that people- nobody trust you because everybody want money . . . . ? ... for quarter, what he do? Or $4.00 or something then what he do? And he say, you, you need that. You need because you be in prison here with your kids. And he's going ... no and I say, we got one friend that Didi goes, friend to Didi, like to me, And he say, go to my (brother)? and ask him for $5.00. Maybe he borrow. Because he's working. He's working in the brewery. He S working solid, like every time. And I just think. It's o.k. tte going to liMe (friend) and I know he's coming home to dinner. And that man say, "I stay with the kids and you go to Mike", and I see if Mike would borrow me $5.00. And after that I going, and order the wood, because you know at that time telephone was something people, even wood yard, not wood yard got telephone. And I going and his wife said, come on, sit down. She's English woman. I say I want see Mike, you know. And Mike coming home. For dinner. And I say, Mike, I coming .... ? .... I coming to (see) if you borrow me $5.00. And he no borrow me. 1 Inter: K.D. Nothing? I just can't forget that. And he going to 'nether room and he bring me his tooth and he say I going, last few days, I going to dentist and look at this. He pull my tooth. He pull me that one. He's find one he's no got no money. He's working and we know he's got money. He's no got thousands. Got few hundred maybe, maybe in bank, because he's working. He's working everytime. And I coming to that place, just thinking, I going to very close friend. There's no closer friend. Not like that. That who split that wood and that who stayed in my house that night. That's three friends we have. Because we got nobody. And I just coming and thinking, "what I do now?" Still I need wood. And I going to -I going home. I just passed my door and I going to store. I going to store and to butcher shop. ~_ We got mostly butcher shop. And I coming. I say, "oh boy", Canadian born. Polish. I coming to him and say, "Mike, for me $5.00, and he say O.K. Just like this. O.K. And he gave me from the register this $5.00 He give me $5.00. I coming home. And I coming home and that man he going to get me wood, 2, 3 blocks, maybe even more. He going to order that wood and right away bring it. Bring it right away. I just thinking. He's help me. Oh, because he's ordered - that man who cuts that wood - because it's coming 4 foot, 8 feet long. Something like that. I forget. And he's going to catch those people who cut wood and I know that people who cut it ....... ? ....... How I catch (cut) it? I got three kids small in the house. And that everything, ordered, ordered that wood. That wood coming. And that man coming too. -two men. Mike again. Mike and Jack coming and cut that wood. Just finished that wood. Not coming in the house to us. That's not coming. Just finish the wood and leave it and that, and I see Didi coming .. ? .. Three weeks. He working for three weeks. And you know why? He's working - somebody -company called - I forget, no - and that company got long, long time people working for that company and that who's working for that company, that cook, he's working long and he's going to CP, and he's got lots of money and he's drinking it. Now coming back to work. �And Didi come to office and people saying to camp we need cook. Didi coming to office and people say, heh, we need cook. And sent Didi there. After that man, he drink (drank) all his money. He want back his job. He's coming to company and say I want back my job. O.K. Go. And he coming to camp and that boss in the camp say I"m sorry because we got you. I no say nothing about. (I've got no say in the matter). And anyway old cook company send me I take him because it's company (that) laid (him) off. And Didi made $35.00 at that time. And Didi coming. I so happy. I just. And he say, it's o.k. He signed debts, to Jack. And I tell him about that wood, about that Mike, about that Pete, about everything, and he say it's o.k. Take that checque and go to Mike to butcher shop and give him $5.00. He cash -this cheque. All right. I going across the road to Mr. ? He cashed the cheque. I going to .... ? .... Mike and give him $5.00. Mike don't know even what corning and everythingand that man who coming lots of time to our house, especially Mike .... ? .... coming night time to talk to us .... ? .... Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Did you have time for any kind of social activities? When you first came? No. No. What did you do? For entertainment .. did you ... ? Nothing. Inter: K.D. Nothing? No going no place. Inter: No I don't mean going out, but did friends come over? K.D. Inter: K.D. Heh, who's got friends? Mrs. ? (Tuarson) started coming from over there. Didi corning from the bush. Because Didi know Mr. ? ........... ? ........................ . We .~.just bought restaurant and he just married in that time before we coming. From camp. We just married. And we corning. And that people married. I believe this year we got restaurant. And he's corning with new wife - young woman - really nice one, little one. That's all we got friends. We no got no friends. Well how about ...8oing to ... were there Were they built then? halls 7 Yah. We wasn't home much to going. After our kids started growing and we started some. Oh yes. We going. We going. To Ukrainian. We going Sunday for concert. One Sunday, I going. Maybe second, third concert, Didi going. And after our kids growing and kids going to started playing. Started going to school and started going dancing. Oh after that, we going ... ? .. kids going .. O.K. That's family. If you corning and I coming late. Working too late.Kids going to play or something, you know. Because lots of dancing and they play mandolin and then I coming later. I work in the bushes and I sit down and I'm so tired. Because we got some time lots of people. Lots of people. And 'nether time because it's season. In that time we got that restaurant. Season coming. People coming from bush. People corning from highway. Who's working on the highway. We got business in that time and people going to work. Good weather. �People go to work. We no got nothing. We got just let people who do 75¢ for week and they just going to broke with that people. That's all. And if I going and sit down in the front, to that ... ? ... , or play or go to where they play baseball because I sit close to that on the bench, or on the chair because no room. That time people come all around. People sit one to 'nether one. And all are under ball. Under hall. Just people stay by this one in that hall. Not now. Nobody now. Nobody now no. How concert corning nice and everything. And that time. that's all going. Sometime playing BINGO, play BINGO something 5¢. I going BINGO and some times younger and older corning and say if you give something for BINGO. You know what we give. Give pie. Give pie. Eat. Nice pie. Lemon pie. This one O.K. Give pie and I give something like that, you know. TAPE II BLUE SIDE K.D. Smith. Inter: K.D. Tim Buck. Tell me about Tirn Buck. Yes few times is corning here. We going. I no speak ... I don't understand much. Inter: K.D. Tim Buck would come up to speak? Lots of people go to hear him? Yes lots of people. And Smith too. Inter: I never heard of him. I like to go. The family. K.D. Don't say that. (Laughter) You going to picnic. Was there picnic and Port Arthur Bush Woman Lake. And 'nether side you got really nice. Women make something to eat, something like that, some dinner, something and we going to that and kids growing little bigger. Kids like it. Buy something. We buy something. And lots of times some people corning and 'specially whose people corning to that picnic, I even see now. That people got money. Because husband working. I know one working Port Arthur Shipyards. I know one working in elevator and woman bring for picnic, for kids, sandwiches. I just say, ah. You know. You going to picnic. People sell something. Some weiners, hot dogs and some pyrogies, something like that. You know, I just feel how people make that? Kids want something. "I want a hot dog: I want a hot dog:" Shut up: Eat that what I brought. Inter: Were there times where you just thought that you'd never make it? Did you have time to think about it? K.D. Why? Inter: Were times that you were so poor that you just couldn't face another day? K.D. No. Just corning .. I don't know how to say that. It's different everything. Too explain that. You know. It's .. I don't know how to say that. You know a few .. Now this is .. I don't know how that even to ... to say that. How people so .. people poor. People really .. You see, even now that people, even now. Now we got .. we live on that government pension.Lots of people got some little money. People not. Nobody got money because in that time people working for little money. That money gone. Because if he working for that ten dollars, that ten dollars today nothing. Even if he's got. If he's no got thousand, thousand, he's no got no money. You know. And that time we cannot make money. Nobody made money. And even now these crazy people, old people still crazy. Because still people, people got $250.00 just like that and people still looking for loaf of bread, going on sale for 20¢ because it's ready stale, it's ready smell, it!s ready green over, all over in that bread. And people do that. I say how you crazy. And why? Because we corning here and we got �bad everything. People know that and people can't forget that. That time you know. And sometime I thinking it's crazy and 'nether time I think we used to that. We used to that. We used to that but we something ,-little crumb falling, we pick that and eat that, because it's something. That's not right now. You know. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. But you still do it. Because we got now not much. It's anyway not nobody hungry. People thinking how we lucky in Canada. Sure lots of people poor, lots of people(pause). You, 'specially you, you need car you need something more like you got . . . . If you really, really smart you be no hungry, because if you really smart, if you no got nothing else you going to city and city give it to you and that time not. That time we got in Fort William man called Blake. He is boss to that all kind relief. And everybody know whose that Blake. I don't know. I no see him. I just know he's big man, And he's like this one and big man. I hear that and I know that. That's Englishman. And we got after that, Ukrainian people, we got Chihowie, Mr. Chihowie, and Mr. Chihowie he's~oing to that hall what I going. He's going to 'nether hall, to Prosvita Hall. And people going to Prosvita, Ukrainian people going to one hall and the other hall. Was the halls were, sort of different politics? Yes. And he's corning to your honse,Ukranian. You can speak. Nobody going to you and he's going investigation. To you house. You know. And he's going to investigation. And if he's find that you no got nothing in your house. You need relief because you got kids and husband not working and you got in your house you got brother or some 15, 16 years old, people tell you throw him away. Because we no give him. He going to work. Must he's get work. Father not working and neighbour not working. And nobody working and he's corning like that. And Mr. Chihowie going under basement, under floor, because at that time people no got no basement. We got now basement, cement basement. That time just on the post (was the) house. And he's going under basement and he see if you got potatoes and maybe beef and meat or something else, from your garden. And he saying, that's one woman tell me about that, Mr. Chihowie, come into my house (came), Ukrainian woman from across the street, I saw her at Midnight Mass. And he's going to under my house and find potatoes and beets and he say, oh you no hungry. You got potatoes and you got beets in the basement, under house. You see what I mean. How that .. And that people today even thinking about that and still is terrible that And still got that money. That people got hundred dollars to spend. That people got hundred dollars keeping hundred dollars. I don't need keeping maybe dollar now.I just thinking 'nether corning tomorrow, after tomorrow. I don't need hundred dollar. Right or not? Do you think the depression made people angry or just made them afraid? It's something, you know. Like I saying, I got depression two times in life. One, the first time, in the old country. Was depression because I"m too small. (because= when) You can't do nothing. Just you know. Before we growing. �Wegot really depression. That was depressing because was depression for us. And after I corning here. I no find it so bad. I no find it. Just one hing. And we got everything what we need. We got shoes. We got dress. Igot coat. And I got everything what I need like everybody else. You know. If I working in a house, working in this house or if I going uptown, I change that because I got another dress. I know one woman. She's still here and she still nice woman, and ... I know she's got that time one little girl, and I don't know that. That's .. ? .. , her neighbour and she know better, and she told me of husband going uptown, and that people got one sweater in the house. One sweater. When he's got that sweater, she no going outside because she no got nothing else. And if she's got sweater, he stay at home. And Mr. (Warson?) say, O.K. come on with me, in a bushand he say no. I no going to bush. Because I lost (will lose) my relief. Because I think he's lazy or something. And I don't know how working in a bush and I don't know how make that everything. And Larson? say yes and I help you everything. And you make it because Mr. Warson/? working every time, every time he's going to the bush. Work is work and he's working and he's got every time little money. Not much. Just that what I save. Pet (five) dollars, family income. And he's say no he's no going. And you know what happen after all? Mrs Warson? tell that. She's saying we sitting in Minnesota Park, that woman, another woman and Mrs. Warson, . And one man corning, hello, hello, women, what you doing? And he's going to store and bring ice cream everybody for that three women. He's working. I Know that man too. And Mrs. Warson, everytirne she's got money. Because she's no got first few years, kids, and he's working and she's got every time few, few dollars, You know. Not suffer. And she's saying, oh we so happy, nice, we sit in the park and enjoy and nice and warm. And he's bring pop and ice cream. And after that she's saying, O.K. we going home. And he's going. With this wanan, talking, man, just ..... that's all. And she's saying, 'nother day, he's corning, same man and he's got two baskets in the hand. One apples, one prunes or something. Peaches or something. And she looking. Oh he's going to Ann. And after that she saying, oh Ann got already dress. And after that she's got coat. And she say, Mrs. Warson, say once, I going to Zeller's store, In Zeller's store, sell something. Sell material. 10¢ a yard and I buy ten yards and give to that Ann. Ann, make for kids dress and make for that window curtains. Because she's no got even curtains 1 in the house. And after that, she's saying because we talking all that, that woman and that man, and she's saying I no going. I say I no blame that woman what she doing something else. What you do if you hungry! What else? And lots of woman I believe some woman, for 'nother dress, because husband working and woman thinking I got two dresses, from husband and boyfriend. And like I saying about that Ann it's nothing home. If she's no got no dress or she's no got no KKBHKX coat or she's no got nothing and that man, what I saying (that I mentioned), he's working ready in a ... ? .... He's got little money. And he's want woman. That's O.K. He give it to her. Because I talking and Mrs. Warson say that's first time I see how that corning. I no blame her. I no blame her. Because no got nothing. And now I believe she's got the pension and he's die, husband die and she, she's still nice. She's still not too ... she look nice. Not too old. I don't know how she's look. She look really nice. Inter: K.D. Inter: K.D. Inter: Did you come to Canada with high hopes? Yes. And I guess what you found doesn't really ... You didn't find what you were looking for. Or did you? I no speak. ARe you sorry you came? �. make mistake. First time I '!'P1) sppak. I married too soon. I make mistake. Because I got ..... like one man what I know from old country, .~ .. he's find some day I'm here. He write to me. I'm ready married. And I x&iixk:tm believed that I'd be married to him, because he's calling me, he write to me, and calling to me, and I coming to ... if I need money, to come. If I write to him, he send me. And I believed it. And he younger. You know. That's fi~t mistake. And second mistake, I just thinking, I no stay in Canada. That's wmrse mistake. I no stay in Canada because I going to United States. I not coming to Canada. I coming to United States. Because I got lots of people in United States. I got my brother in United States. I just thinking I going to United States. Inter: K.D. How did you end up here? h ~t'CJ And after. I just thinking I coming e\Hae. And I find some better life 'cause I no got so good life in the old country. And I find it in United States, better life. And I not place here. And I know work I know. I know how to do lots of things in old country. I thinking if I not married, I know I be cook for somebody, I know cooking from old country, I be saying I no say that to nobody because I ho want to say that. It's not right talking. You no do that. I just thinking I know how to do for somebody, for some, even rich people, and people pay me good, and I would stay O.K. and something like that. And first time that I coming here, In Fort William, I no like Fort William, because it's too small, I no like Fort William. I hate Fort William. I say, 'Stay here? Here nothing. You make good money. You can't make here good life." And I O.K. I at that time O.K. because I thinking right because it's so small. Twelve thousand, 12,000 people we got that time or 7 or something, you know. If I started xkixki:xg~xxxH&xsxep reading, or after that I know it's twelve thousand people. I say you can't make no ... nothing ... no factory, no nothing. What you do? You know. You need something. Stay just in the house. Or waiter. Or not waiter in the home, just peeling potatoes for Chinaman in the basement? I just see that right away. I just ... first day coming, - I don't know how - I coming from station to MacMillan street I just think. We just going some place just to wait, and after that I hear a song, "I going to the city." I say Oh ho, ho. (Laughter) No. I tell you that. And 'nether third day that boy, my cousin, he's taking me to town, we going to town. He say, come on, we going to town. We going, we going, I believe, to ... ? ... store. I don't know. We going from MacMillan Street, we going to the May Street, we going to Port Arthur. After we c.oming back, Susan Street, and he say, you right in the middle (of the) city. I look at the map and say-, oh. I no say to nobody because, what you say? I just say, oh I hope something coming else. Bigger street like (tha~) that. Because you can't ... you can't do nothing here. You know if you see now not, happy~ know nothing. Sure some people no thinking that now. I :tb6~~ in the city and I know what city means. I know what city mea~ ~fcause lots of girls coming from village to city. That girl~~now nothing. I lived in the city. I lived in other places. I lived all over. I lived (in) lots of places. And I know. And after Didi started talking to me and say something, I say no. Because Didi not believe in church. Didi not believe in marriage. He just thinking, O.K. we like now going and we just take licence, and we leave it like that. And I say no. I don't care for church. I don't care it's anyway working, going through, something coming, I want this make it that, in right way. You know. And after we going to church and take that church marriage. J~u �~ We got that church marriage and didn't make no living, no nothing. First we got that man who's coming and send me for that wood and that man to whom I gming to borrow $5.00 and he's show me he's cheap. And his wife. After to that little apartment. Just in a house. And that people what you see stayed in the house. And after that woman got little baby and I, for that little girl, how was that , calling, godmother. Yah godmother. And anyway, after I say to Didi, every time, we going some place, we no stay here. We no stay if we married. I say going some place, going some place. We going some 'nether place, make a little money. We can't make here money. And he going and buy that restaurant and coming home, what we stayed in the room, and say, I buy (bought) a restaurant. I say, I no want restaurant. I working one month in restaurant, Right close to that restaurant. And I see how that ... you can't make money. Because it's poor restaurant. Poor everythi-ng. You can't make money. Oh we try it. We try it. And we tried it. To spring time, - we take it in March, I j~t saying first, - in springtime, and in springtime, coming here a man and he give us, I don't know. I don't know r4iillwwhat we _paying ( paid) (little more even) for that restaurant, you know, and I say no and people coming. So people coming to our restaurant to eat because we know how cook. We know both how cooking good. You know. And people coming really good. You know. I say to Didi, no we'll stay a little longer. And we stayed a little longer and coming depression, -what we do that time? Nothing. Just nothing. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Herstory Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Herstory: Ksenia Dubinsky Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Permission to make this interview public has been given by Ksenia's granddaughter, Karen Dubinsky. Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Mrs. Ksenia Dubinsky in Fort William, Ontario. The interview was performed by Karen Dubinsky as part of the Women's Decade Council Herstory project. The recording consists of three sides of two cassette tapes, available as three MP3 files. (Click on the speaker logo to play each file.) The transcript is available by clicking on the image thumbnail. During the interview, Mrs. Dubinsky discusses immigrating from the Ukraine to Fort William. She speaks on working in a restaurant during the depression and building a life in a new country during a time of economic turmoil. There are descriptions of how the different groups of immigrants in Fort William helped each other establish themselves. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Northwestern Ontario Women's Decade Council Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada - Ontario - Fort William Canada - Ontario - Thunder Bay Subject The topic of the resource People Women's History